Starting Problem
Discussion
Recently purchased Griff 500, previously Chim 400 and Wedge owner. Unfortunately when hot, on occasions, the starter does not operate when I turn the key. The car has a hot start kit fitted, but that doesn't work either, even though you can hear the relay operating. Anyone any ideas?
I had a problem last week which was hot start related. I talked to X Works re the problem and understand there are 2 issues:
- first the solenoid is fired by a connection which is via the alarm and as that isn't man enough for it the solution to that is to fit the hot start relay solution - ie the trigger from the alarm is then used to fire a relay which is connected to send enough current to the solenoid. This solution generally solves the problem - but
- the second problem is that the starter motor is connected via contacts which are made inside the starter motor when the solenoid is fired. These contacts can get eroded away with use and eventually the solution is to replace the starter motor or fit a recon unit.
Hope the above helps. If you have the hot start relay fitted then unless that relay isn't working (possible) then the solution may be a replacement starter.
Jim
- first the solenoid is fired by a connection which is via the alarm and as that isn't man enough for it the solution to that is to fit the hot start relay solution - ie the trigger from the alarm is then used to fire a relay which is connected to send enough current to the solenoid. This solution generally solves the problem - but
- the second problem is that the starter motor is connected via contacts which are made inside the starter motor when the solenoid is fired. These contacts can get eroded away with use and eventually the solution is to replace the starter motor or fit a recon unit.
Hope the above helps. If you have the hot start relay fitted then unless that relay isn't working (possible) then the solution may be a replacement starter.
Jim
I am very puzzled why fitting a relay to actuate the starter solonoid should be called "A hot start kit".
Fair enough that the immobiliser relay that normally actuates the starter may not be rated adequately to cope with the current required by the starter solonoid and an additional relay will provide that current but that problem is present on both cold and hot starts.
The hot start problem I have experienced on occasions has nothing to do with the starter solonoid as the engine turns over but will not fire. It seems to be an over fuelling problem as pointed out by a very helpful forumist a while back, his solution was to remove the fuel pump relay the engine then fires and dies after a few seconds, the relay is then replaced and the engine then starts normally. I will try this next time there is a problem.
Fair enough that the immobiliser relay that normally actuates the starter may not be rated adequately to cope with the current required by the starter solonoid and an additional relay will provide that current but that problem is present on both cold and hot starts.
The hot start problem I have experienced on occasions has nothing to do with the starter solonoid as the engine turns over but will not fire. It seems to be an over fuelling problem as pointed out by a very helpful forumist a while back, his solution was to remove the fuel pump relay the engine then fires and dies after a few seconds, the relay is then replaced and the engine then starts normally. I will try this next time there is a problem.
Edited by Loubaruch on Saturday 15th May 13:49
My understanding is that the problem starts with the immobiliser relays, there are three, one for starter, fuel pump and ignition all small circuit board mounted and potted into the immobiliser unit.
The starter isn’t really up to driving the starter and after time starts to fail, this is made worse when the engine get warm on two accounts. One the starter gets hot and sticky hence needing a bit more juice and Two the immobiliser gets warm which the relays don’t like.
The hot start kit helps in the majority of cases depending how far gone the immobiliser relay is. The immobiliser unit is normally sited on top of the bell housing cover behind the dash and moving it off there up next to the steering column helps a lot (there’s plenty of cable to re-site it).
If you fitted the hot start kit then it should be reasonably obvious how to by-pass the immobiliser in such a way that the new relay can be operated in an emergency.
However if the above by-pass doesn’t work then may be one of other relays is cooked, can you hear the fuel pump prime, don’t know how you monitor the ignition circuit, but you’ll need to rig a by-pass for these circuits to check.
If all these fail and/or you don’t like the bypass approach (which by the way in my case is not permanent or hard wired) then you need to talk to Carl Barker about checking, fixing or replacing your alarm system first.
Mine has been set up as above now for many years and only very rarely in high summer have I needed to use the emergency by-pass.
Cheers,
Simon.
The starter isn’t really up to driving the starter and after time starts to fail, this is made worse when the engine get warm on two accounts. One the starter gets hot and sticky hence needing a bit more juice and Two the immobiliser gets warm which the relays don’t like.
The hot start kit helps in the majority of cases depending how far gone the immobiliser relay is. The immobiliser unit is normally sited on top of the bell housing cover behind the dash and moving it off there up next to the steering column helps a lot (there’s plenty of cable to re-site it).
If you fitted the hot start kit then it should be reasonably obvious how to by-pass the immobiliser in such a way that the new relay can be operated in an emergency.
However if the above by-pass doesn’t work then may be one of other relays is cooked, can you hear the fuel pump prime, don’t know how you monitor the ignition circuit, but you’ll need to rig a by-pass for these circuits to check.
If all these fail and/or you don’t like the bypass approach (which by the way in my case is not permanent or hard wired) then you need to talk to Carl Barker about checking, fixing or replacing your alarm system first.
Mine has been set up as above now for many years and only very rarely in high summer have I needed to use the emergency by-pass.
Cheers,
Simon.
Thanks Guys, I don't think that it is the starter because you can't hear the solenoid operate when you turn the key, There is a button fitted under the steering column which is supposed to operate the starter if the key fails. This problem is very random and annoying. I have had to get a push start on several occasions, reinforcing folks perception on TVR reliability.
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