oil surge and sprinting?
Discussion
took the just finished griff to Hethel for its first TVRCC sprint on sunday and won! beat every ferrari and porsche as well.
pretty chuffed with the way it went, handled, stopped etc. BUT I lost all oil pressure on the fast left hand corner. The yellow light came on and the oil pressure guage read 0, one is hyraulic and one is electric so definitely oil surge and not a glitch in instruments or senders. The engine is fine - no damage done but I want to cure it before entering another sprint.
The car corners very fast, nitrons, super soft R888's etc and the data logger shows upto 1.3G lateral on the bends. Other than buying an off the shelf baffled sump does anyone have real experience of baffles for sumps and know of a solution for a 500 that definitley works? Please no theories or guesswork, I need proven solutions, as this isn't something i want to take a risk on
TIA Jes
pretty chuffed with the way it went, handled, stopped etc. BUT I lost all oil pressure on the fast left hand corner. The yellow light came on and the oil pressure guage read 0, one is hyraulic and one is electric so definitely oil surge and not a glitch in instruments or senders. The engine is fine - no damage done but I want to cure it before entering another sprint.
The car corners very fast, nitrons, super soft R888's etc and the data logger shows upto 1.3G lateral on the bends. Other than buying an off the shelf baffled sump does anyone have real experience of baffles for sumps and know of a solution for a 500 that definitley works? Please no theories or guesswork, I need proven solutions, as this isn't something i want to take a risk on
TIA Jes
Edited by jesfirth on Tuesday 10th August 22:05
John eales or V8D do baffled/gated sumps. That's where I'd be heading as both have engines in many race cars and off road installations. I wouldn't DIY it, I'd discuss req's with 'em and pays me money as they say.
I'm quite sure you've thought of that . . . The other person to ask is Andy Race or some of the othe TC guys. Andy's lump is a JE one anyway.
I'm quite sure you've thought of that . . . The other person to ask is Andy Race or some of the othe TC guys. Andy's lump is a JE one anyway.
te on hard crneres raod driving.... starting to think my drivin style aint favourable for road driving lolHad exactly this on track soon as I started running Triple 8's.
First, altered sump muself to divert oil to center pickup, this improved matters but still occured, especially on airfield days with grippy tarmac.
Then I fitted an oil cooler and changed oil from the usual motorsport oil to Royal Purple 20/50, problem completely iliminated!
The trouble occurs after very hard breaking and then after weight transfer the speed at which you can corner, significantly higher speeds then you will ever achieve on the road.
Wadsapple had the same problem on his 5.2 JE grief which was pre serp.
He fitted a JE baffled sump, still lost pressure.
They changed the front end to serp and it still lost pressure.
He also,(before me), fitted a cooler and changed to Royal Purple oil and problem solved also.
Would have been imformative to fit the cooler first and test but we didn't!
First, altered sump muself to divert oil to center pickup, this improved matters but still occured, especially on airfield days with grippy tarmac.
Then I fitted an oil cooler and changed oil from the usual motorsport oil to Royal Purple 20/50, problem completely iliminated!
The trouble occurs after very hard breaking and then after weight transfer the speed at which you can corner, significantly higher speeds then you will ever achieve on the road.
Wadsapple had the same problem on his 5.2 JE grief which was pre serp.
He fitted a JE baffled sump, still lost pressure.
They changed the front end to serp and it still lost pressure.
He also,(before me), fitted a cooler and changed to Royal Purple oil and problem solved also.
Would have been imformative to fit the cooler first and test but we didn't!
Edited by haircutmike on Wednesday 11th August 08:15
haircutmike said:
...The trouble occurs after very hard breaking and then after weight transfer the speed at which you can corner, significantly higher speeds then you will ever achieve on the road.
That and prolonged cornering lateral forces will fill the rocker cover, even worse if you go thru a flip flop corner as you fill both and then you get oil starvation (Accusump and/or external oil filter will give you extra capacity and keep the pump primed for longer)...which is not the same thing as sump surge, which is where the sump oil is forced up the side of the case and either wetting the crank or goes up the piston bores which in the worst can course hydrualic locking of the engine (something I've suffered from in the past, particularly boxer engines) then a baffled sump and windage plate is your friend 
. The J.E. one is very good.Edited by Bluebottle on Wednesday 11th August 08:34
Bluebottle said:
haircutmike said:
...The trouble occurs after very hard breaking and then after weight transfer the speed at which you can corner, significantly higher speeds then you will ever achieve on the road.
That and prolonged cornering lateral forces will fill the rocker cover, even worse if you go thru a flip flop corner as you fill both and then you get oil starvation (Accusump and/or external oil filter will give you extra capacity and keep the pump primed for longer)...which is not the same thing as sump surge, which is where the sump oil is forced up the side of the case and either wetting the crank or goes up the piston bores which in the worst can course hydrualic locking of the engine (something I've suffered from in the past, particularly boxer engines) then a baffled sump and windage plate is your friend . The J.E. one is very good.Edited by Bluebottle on Wednesday 11th August 08:34
Bluebottle said:
That and prolonged cornering lateral forces will fill the rocker cover, even worse if you go thru a flip flop corner as you fill both and then you get oil starvation
I think that scenario is frequently overstated, the oil is still going to drain back, just a slightly smaller capacity - but to an extent that happens as soon as you fire the engine. Poor crankcase ventilation (incorrect vacuum pressure) might be allowing as much oil to be suspended in air and hence lost to sump level? Lighter oils (at temp) maybe slosh around the sump easier - its easier to spill a jar of of water than one of treacle ?I've done endless hours of grinding & polishing on heads and valleys for drain back, yet whilst doing it really fail to see that it makes a quantum improvement, but every little helps as they say
Getting the drain back to flow 'nicely' onto the cam lobes is pretty beneficial I guess though.Some one did once tell me to try packing the sump with mesh, that the honeycomb and adhesion of the oil to it would help. I've never been brave enough to try that one though. I do believe there is a way to tap into the sump/pickup and pipe in a remote reservoir of oil, which is effectively like an extreme baffled sump.
Baffled sumps only keep oil thats at the bottom of the engine...at the pick up and away from the moving parts. Not sloshing about.
If the oils at the top (as Bluebottle says) they won't do anything.
Gp A heads have restrictors in the oil ways to reduce oil flow there (its too much anyway), keeping it below, and an accusump will give a reserve of oil to allow for the stuff caught in the rockers.
Dry sump is the best cure, next accusump and finally baffled sump.
A
If the oils at the top (as Bluebottle says) they won't do anything.
Gp A heads have restrictors in the oil ways to reduce oil flow there (its too much anyway), keeping it below, and an accusump will give a reserve of oil to allow for the stuff caught in the rockers.
Dry sump is the best cure, next accusump and finally baffled sump.
A
Must admit over many years Ive always used Slick 50 as a safe guard when tracking just in case there is no oil around for a few revs due to surge. This stuff has been proven to work and has been used by many race teams over the years. Baffled sump is the solution but I still use Slick 50 for added peace of mind.
Another tip in to slightly overfill with oil, I usually overfill by about5mm indicated.
This helps and you will be using oil at full chat.
An oil cooler helps by cooling the oil and maintaining the viscosity, ( you also add more oil into the system).
Royal Purple oil has been specifically designed for use with racing V8 engines, (yank), and again, maintains it's viscosity when others don't at high temperatures.
All I know is it works!
This helps and you will be using oil at full chat.
An oil cooler helps by cooling the oil and maintaining the viscosity, ( you also add more oil into the system).
Royal Purple oil has been specifically designed for use with racing V8 engines, (yank), and again, maintains it's viscosity when others don't at high temperatures.
All I know is it works!
...it makes my supercharger oil look cheap!
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