Discussion
Ok. Ive had a lift off a kind member of this forum who is helping me to arrange an engine.
The engine in its current form is a crazy horse by all accounts, so im hoping to detune it a little by replacing some of the more extreme parts which are currently fitted.
After some fettling with various components, i should hopefully arrive at the following spec.
A+ Block - 11 Stud
73.5mm Bore - Cast Omega Pistons
Stroked crank to give 1338cc
Cooper S Rods
Arp Bolts
Steel Flywheel
Balanced
High capacity oil pump
Piper 285 Magnum 2 Cam
Orange Pressure place
Organic Friction plate
10.5 Compression Ratio or (or there abouts)
Weber 40 Dcoe on a 5" Maniflow Exhaust Manifold
Maniflow LCB and a twin box RC40
Fast Road Oselli 11 Stud Head - Nicely ported / reworked chambers and bigger valves
Double valve springs
Electronic Ignition
Straight Cut Gearbox & Cross Pin Diff
Could anyone hazard a guess what the power & torque output would be once set up on a rolling road?
What im after is a strong reliable unit that is tractable around town, yet beefy enough to take some stick while out on a run. Can anyone comment on how cammy this would be?
Its not my everyday car, and will be only out when the weather is nice on special occasions.
Any comments would be welcome.
Mike
The engine in its current form is a crazy horse by all accounts, so im hoping to detune it a little by replacing some of the more extreme parts which are currently fitted.
After some fettling with various components, i should hopefully arrive at the following spec.
A+ Block - 11 Stud
73.5mm Bore - Cast Omega Pistons
Stroked crank to give 1338cc
Cooper S Rods
Arp Bolts
Steel Flywheel
Balanced
High capacity oil pump
Piper 285 Magnum 2 Cam
Orange Pressure place
Organic Friction plate
10.5 Compression Ratio or (or there abouts)
Weber 40 Dcoe on a 5" Maniflow Exhaust Manifold
Maniflow LCB and a twin box RC40
Fast Road Oselli 11 Stud Head - Nicely ported / reworked chambers and bigger valves
Double valve springs
Electronic Ignition
Straight Cut Gearbox & Cross Pin Diff
Could anyone hazard a guess what the power & torque output would be once set up on a rolling road?
What im after is a strong reliable unit that is tractable around town, yet beefy enough to take some stick while out on a run. Can anyone comment on how cammy this would be?
Its not my everyday car, and will be only out when the weather is nice on special occasions.
Any comments would be welcome.
Mike
Edited by revingtosh on Thursday 8th January 02:07
Sounds like a good'n...nicely matched although a 45 DCOE might unleash a couple more hp....should get you 85-90 ATW on a conservative(ie real) rolling road....eg at Aldon (no connection....just been a cutomer before).
Having run an old 649 in a road car I've never suscribed to the cammy theory....its all a bit of spin by the cam makers/ditributors to keep the sales moving as people upgrade....yes it does have an effect but I've not found any hot cams a PITA at low revs...but then again I've only ever bothered with 1300cc + engines.
Having run an old 649 in a road car I've never suscribed to the cammy theory....its all a bit of spin by the cam makers/ditributors to keep the sales moving as people upgrade....yes it does have an effect but I've not found any hot cams a PITA at low revs...but then again I've only ever bothered with 1300cc + engines.
mike
is this an old grassing engine?
the semi short stroke 73.5 bore was a class limit size about 10 years ago - the rough spec you have would point to it been a budget spec motor for that partiular class (the 'proper' engines would have used paddle clutchs and lsd's and more fancy bits)
ive got the exact same motor sat under the bench at home, all be it that mine came from a top class winner and ran forged marle pistons and a bespoke cam
either way, it should rev well, and be fairly sweet, you will find that it will be grumpy below, say 3500 rpm, but messing with the cam timing (at the expense of top end revs / power) might help with this
depending on the age of the clutch plate it may judder badly when setting off, you can fit a std plate to help this.
you will need to know what ratio final drive and the ratio of the box is to do some sums. if its a st ratio the 1st is very tall and wont really take more than a 3.6 - otherwise you have to slip the clutch to get them going and they tend to fall off the cam.
you will need to get the gearing right as this engine will behave like a 1071 - it will need to rev due the cam and the short stroke.
as for power id guess that on the rollers i use it would show about 80-85 - similar to what my full race 1071 motor gives.
not a bad starting point if the money is right!
is this an old grassing engine?
the semi short stroke 73.5 bore was a class limit size about 10 years ago - the rough spec you have would point to it been a budget spec motor for that partiular class (the 'proper' engines would have used paddle clutchs and lsd's and more fancy bits)
ive got the exact same motor sat under the bench at home, all be it that mine came from a top class winner and ran forged marle pistons and a bespoke cam
either way, it should rev well, and be fairly sweet, you will find that it will be grumpy below, say 3500 rpm, but messing with the cam timing (at the expense of top end revs / power) might help with this
depending on the age of the clutch plate it may judder badly when setting off, you can fit a std plate to help this.
you will need to know what ratio final drive and the ratio of the box is to do some sums. if its a st ratio the 1st is very tall and wont really take more than a 3.6 - otherwise you have to slip the clutch to get them going and they tend to fall off the cam.
you will need to get the gearing right as this engine will behave like a 1071 - it will need to rev due the cam and the short stroke.
as for power id guess that on the rollers i use it would show about 80-85 - similar to what my full race 1071 motor gives.
not a bad starting point if the money is right!
Edited by guru_1071 on Thursday 8th January 11:31
Hi,
As far as im aware the engine is to come out of an ex rally car judging by the pics that have been sent and from what the owner has told me.
The 1970 shell is about to be scrapped as its knackered.
The seller has said that the engine was built about 2 1/2 years ago by Bromsgrove Engine Services and set up by Southam Minis afterwards.
Shortly after being built the engine lunched 3rd & 4th gear so the box was replaced with a Metro Turbo Challenge cup car gearbox and straight cut drop gears with a very long first gear.
Its done about 4000 miles since then and has been laid up in a garage for some time as the chap bought a caterham type car as a new toy.
The engine is currently in the car but has a 48mm IDA Weber hanging off the side of it. Im told that the cam is a VPC3 item and, (from the pics ive seen) the head is fitted with mahoosive valves.
The seller has said that in its current trim its a little hideous for road use due to being very cammy and it eats spark plugs for breakfast.
With the addition of my 285 cam, 40 Dcoe and the not so profane Oselli Cylinder head i was hoping that this equipment would produce something a little less cammy and much more sweeter to drive around town and for occasional use due to the high gas speed from the smaller bore carb.
I dont mind something a little brash, but a friend of mine has a 3.1 Litre capri years ago fitted with a full race cam and full race heads.
He looked like a right tit driving around the streets as there simply wasnt any power under 4500rpm and the engine would die!
Anyways, me and the wife are hoping to start a family over the coming months, so this will be my last big expense as wifey will be going part time once junior arrives so money will become a lot tighter.
Bearing this in mind, the engine needs to be reliable! So i need to get this right. I reckoh realistically i will be doing around 2000 miles a year as its my second car.
Mike
As far as im aware the engine is to come out of an ex rally car judging by the pics that have been sent and from what the owner has told me.
The 1970 shell is about to be scrapped as its knackered.
The seller has said that the engine was built about 2 1/2 years ago by Bromsgrove Engine Services and set up by Southam Minis afterwards.
Shortly after being built the engine lunched 3rd & 4th gear so the box was replaced with a Metro Turbo Challenge cup car gearbox and straight cut drop gears with a very long first gear.
Its done about 4000 miles since then and has been laid up in a garage for some time as the chap bought a caterham type car as a new toy.
The engine is currently in the car but has a 48mm IDA Weber hanging off the side of it. Im told that the cam is a VPC3 item and, (from the pics ive seen) the head is fitted with mahoosive valves.
The seller has said that in its current trim its a little hideous for road use due to being very cammy and it eats spark plugs for breakfast.
With the addition of my 285 cam, 40 Dcoe and the not so profane Oselli Cylinder head i was hoping that this equipment would produce something a little less cammy and much more sweeter to drive around town and for occasional use due to the high gas speed from the smaller bore carb.
I dont mind something a little brash, but a friend of mine has a 3.1 Litre capri years ago fitted with a full race cam and full race heads.
He looked like a right tit driving around the streets as there simply wasnt any power under 4500rpm and the engine would die!
Anyways, me and the wife are hoping to start a family over the coming months, so this will be my last big expense as wifey will be going part time once junior arrives so money will become a lot tighter.
Bearing this in mind, the engine needs to be reliable! So i need to get this right. I reckoh realistically i will be doing around 2000 miles a year as its my second car.
Mike
Edited by revingtosh on Thursday 8th January 12:37
Edited by revingtosh on Thursday 8th January 12:42
Hi,
As far as im aware the engine is to come out of an ex rally car judging by the pics that have been sent and from what the owner has told me.
The 1970 shell is about to be scrapped as its knackered.
The seller has said that the engine was built about 2 1/2 years ago by Bromsgrove Engine Services and set up by Southam Minis afterwards.
Shortly after being built the engine lunched 3rd & 4th gear so the box was replaced with a Metro Turbo Challenge cup car gearbox and straight cut drop gears with a very long first gear.
Its done about 4000 miles since then and has been laid up in a garage for some time as the chap bought a caterham type car as a new toy.
The engine is currently in the car but has a 48mm IDA Weber hanging off the side of it. Im told that the cam is a VPC3 item and, (from the pics ive seen) the head is fitted with mahoosive valves.
The seller has said that in its current trim its a little hideous for road use due to being very cammy and it eats spark plugs for breakfast.
With the addition of my 285 cam, 40 Dcoe and the not so profane Oselli Cylinder head i was hoping that this equipment would produce something a little less cammy and much more sweeter to drive around town and for occasional use due to the high gas speed from the smaller bore carb.
I dont mind something a little brash, but a friend of mine has a 3.1 Litre capri years ago fitted with a full race cam and full race heads.
He looked like a right tit driving around the streets as there simply wasnt any power under 4500rpm and the engine would die!
Anyways, me and the wife are hoping to start a family over the coming months, so this will be my last big expense as wifey will be going part time once junior arrives so money will become a lot tighter.
Bearing this in mind, the engine needs to be reliable! So i need to get this right. I reckoh realistically i will be doing around 2000 miles a year as its my second car.
Mike
As far as im aware the engine is to come out of an ex rally car judging by the pics that have been sent and from what the owner has told me.
The 1970 shell is about to be scrapped as its knackered.
The seller has said that the engine was built about 2 1/2 years ago by Bromsgrove Engine Services and set up by Southam Minis afterwards.
Shortly after being built the engine lunched 3rd & 4th gear so the box was replaced with a Metro Turbo Challenge cup car gearbox and straight cut drop gears with a very long first gear.
Its done about 4000 miles since then and has been laid up in a garage for some time as the chap bought a caterham type car as a new toy.
The engine is currently in the car but has a 48mm IDA Weber hanging off the side of it. Im told that the cam is a VPC3 item and, (from the pics ive seen) the head is fitted with mahoosive valves.
The seller has said that in its current trim its a little hideous for road use due to being very cammy and it eats spark plugs for breakfast.
With the addition of my 285 cam, 40 Dcoe and the not so profane Oselli Cylinder head i was hoping that this equipment would produce something a little less cammy and much more sweeter to drive around town and for occasional use due to the high gas speed from the smaller bore carb.
I dont mind something a little brash, but a friend of mine has a 3.1 Litre capri years ago fitted with a full race cam and full race heads.
He looked like a right tit driving around the streets as there simply wasnt any power under 4500rpm and the engine would die!
Anyways, me and the wife are hoping to start a family over the coming months, so this will be my last big expense as wifey will be going part time once junior arrives so money will become a lot tighter.
Bearing this in mind, the engine needs to be reliable! So i need to get this right. I reckoh realistically i will be doing around 2000 miles a year as its my second car.
Mike
Edited by revingtosh on Thursday 8th January 12:37
Edited by revingtosh on Thursday 8th January 12:53
That sounds a good spec. If it was me I think I would be inclined to go for a Kent 266 or 276 cam, timed to 106 deg ATDC which would mean that the area under the power graph would move down the rev range a bit but still give excellent results.
What dizzy are you intending? It sounds like a minimum of an Aldon 'Red' would be needed. However, if you call Aldon and let them have the spec they will curve one to suit - they really are most helpful and not expensive for what they do.
What dizzy are you intending? It sounds like a minimum of an Aldon 'Red' would be needed. However, if you call Aldon and let them have the spec they will curve one to suit - they really are most helpful and not expensive for what they do.
id say the turbo challange set will be terrible for road use, the ratios where built for rolling starts, so stationary ones require plenty of revs and a either a slipping clutch or a wheel spin. this of course leads to problems around the primary gear area thanks to the heat.
they are also very scarce, so finding spare gears will be a mission.
if your going use this engine, your best flogging the challange box (they fetch good money) and buying something like one of the clubman ratio boxes - far better suited to road use - you also can get away with higer final drives.
id also loose the sc drop gears, they are painful on a road car - very noisey.
my 73.5 bore 970 was a git for plugs as well, and its a problem that seems to afflict the very large bore, short strokes. the plugs either are too hot to start (and foul), or too cold to rev hard (and foul/brake up) it was a problem i never resolved on that particualr engine (it blew up....)
both my 1071's on the other hand are fine - never an issue.
they are also very scarce, so finding spare gears will be a mission.
if your going use this engine, your best flogging the challange box (they fetch good money) and buying something like one of the clubman ratio boxes - far better suited to road use - you also can get away with higer final drives.
id also loose the sc drop gears, they are painful on a road car - very noisey.
my 73.5 bore 970 was a git for plugs as well, and its a problem that seems to afflict the very large bore, short strokes. the plugs either are too hot to start (and foul), or too cold to rev hard (and foul/brake up) it was a problem i never resolved on that particualr engine (it blew up....)
both my 1071's on the other hand are fine - never an issue.
Edited by guru_1071 on Thursday 8th January 13:18
Cheers, i will give this some consideration.
Tranmission noise won't bother me as i dont have to drive the bugger every day so i would rather retain strength/reliability and ignore the noise of the box and drop gears. Plus i quite like the noise. It matches the look of the car, i.e. Lowered, Group 5 Arches, 6x13" Minilites, 4 Cibie Oscars on a 2 up 2 down bracket.
The Mini is kitted out with a full cage / bucket seats and harnesses so its fairly rum anyway.
What gearbox would you recommend as a replacement for the Race Metro one and what are they both worth? I mentioned earlier that money is always a pressing issue with babies on the horizon!
Mike
Tranmission noise won't bother me as i dont have to drive the bugger every day so i would rather retain strength/reliability and ignore the noise of the box and drop gears. Plus i quite like the noise. It matches the look of the car, i.e. Lowered, Group 5 Arches, 6x13" Minilites, 4 Cibie Oscars on a 2 up 2 down bracket.
The Mini is kitted out with a full cage / bucket seats and harnesses so its fairly rum anyway.
What gearbox would you recommend as a replacement for the Race Metro one and what are they both worth? I mentioned earlier that money is always a pressing issue with babies on the horizon!
Mike
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