Defender with traction control - good or bad?
Discussion
I'm looking at replacing the existing 90 with a slightly newer one. As I hire trailers for a living, I'm always towing them across fields which can be wet or muddy, especially throughout the last 6 months, and use diff lock all the time to get me back to the tarmac. Even then, I sometimes struggle and often wonder whether T/C would be worthwhile on the next Defender. A comment in a recent forum said they had to accelerate hard before the T/C kicked in as at low throttle it's easily confused? This seems pretty crap to me, but I'd be interested to know other experiences.
Moto said:
I'm looking at replacing the existing 90 with a slightly newer one. As I hire trailers for a living, I'm always towing them across fields which can be wet or muddy, especially throughout the last 6 months, and use diff lock all the time to get me back to the tarmac. Even then, I sometimes struggle and often wonder whether T/C would be worthwhile on the next Defender. A comment in a recent forum said they had to accelerate hard before the T/C kicked in as at low throttle it's easily confused? This seems pretty crap to me, but I'd be interested to know other experiences.
Nah... I think you'll find that they're just driving like a t
t!TC (or 'Tallent Control' as we call it) will kick in if there's wheelspin. If you haven't got wheelspin, then you've got traction... Which is what you want!!!
If it is slippery enough for TC to kick in, the thing to remember is that it's a bit of a balancing act. Too much gas & all that'll happen is that you'll just spin the wheels that have grip but too little and you'll not get wheelspin for the system to operate.
If that makes sense???
M
heightswitch said:
Tc was ok but personally the biggest irk for me with the new models was the abs which in snowy and icy conditions I found to be far too sensitive.
I sold mine and now have this....
Stage 1 very nice,I have a 6x6 Sandringham, every TVR owner seems to have a soft spot for Landies!I sold mine and now have this....
Edited by heightswitch on Tuesday 6th November 19:00
Edited by heightswitch on Tuesday 6th November 19:00
back on topic,I have had 300 Disco V8's and currently have a Disco 2 and the ABS is not good.It seems that if you lock up the n/s wheels up down the lanes on wet leaves etc the ABS cuts in and you loose all the braking from the wheels that have grip.On the traction front my TD5 90 has had a looking diff put in it and it makes a massive difference I will be putting a couple of tru tracs in the Disco as it has a somewhat larger engine now and spins all the wheels in the dry when pushed hard!
Edited by topsparks on Tuesday 6th November 19:44
For most conditions, a central locking diff will be more than adequate. TC helps in extreme conditions and in particular where a 'cross axling' situation has occurred. This is where the front left wheel and rear right wheel (or front right, rear left) are in the air and spinning all the power away. TC will intervene and keep you moving.
I'm not sure i would bother with a rear locker. I think they just over stress other parts of the car and really are for ultra extreme scenarios.
I'm not sure i would bother with a rear locker. I think they just over stress other parts of the car and really are for ultra extreme scenarios.
Moto said:
Neil, proper job that. This is my proper job....
.... and it'd tow a trailer across a field that my Defender wouldn't 'cause of it's tyres. But as the Defender also does 15k miles a year on the black stuff so I just use the S1 for enjoyment.
Nice..... and it'd tow a trailer across a field that my Defender wouldn't 'cause of it's tyres. But as the Defender also does 15k miles a year on the black stuff so I just use the S1 for enjoyment.
save your money though on the new defender. I ran a 2.4 Puma 110 CSW with all the toys for 2.5 years and 40k miles. I never gelled with it. Usual mechanical maladies and trips to dealers. The supposed lower first and extra 6th weren't any good for other than motorway work and I found that on B roads where most of the driving was done...6th too high but fifth a bit lower and hence constantly changing up and down. TC was a better feature but noisy and quick to come in.. I found that where you would just plow through in a normal landy the TC would come in on mud and cause power to be prematurely lost on the slipping wheel...ABS though really was dire making braking distances etc far worse... I live up in the hills with the farmers and My mate felt he had made a mistake changing from his TD5.
I still like the old 300Tdi but unless you want a restored re-chassid one they are getting too long in the tooth.
My view would be keep it simple and if you are towing on mud invest your money in front and rear air lockers which for normal people will be fab, and unless you are a real mud plugger won't necessarily break the driveline...
Oh and the Build quality on the 2007 on landies is truly abysmal...I am sure their must be a landrover boffin calculating to the nearest micron the minimum thickness of matt black being applied to the chassis just to get it through warranty..
In 40k miles mine needed
2 x diffs, 1 rear axle re-build, new front prop, brake vacuum pump, , 3 x re-calls for software, 3 x gearsticks which started to rattle I gave up with them in the end and turned the radio up..replacement heated screen, 2 x trips to dealer to cure window leaks into rear compartment, re-call and new sump, full clutch assembly...The clunk between gears was always there and despite me showing them the wear on the transfer box and input splines they refused to change under warranty... and this was a fully serviced at main dealer vehicle....I love them to bits but they are truly cack.
Never again..Will stick to the older stuff which are noisy and rattle but more importantly keep going for the 2 - 3 weeks of the year we get bad weather.....look at the elevation I live at...440m!!
People slagged the TD5 over the 300Tdi. But in my view the TD5 is far better as a base model than the transit van engined chocolate Gearboxed poorer version they are selling now.
Now I am one of the few that does get snow....
Originally I had this....
Which I stupidly sold to buy this.....
Which did the job..sort of
Then I went back to this..
Which displayed the build quality like this....
So not wanting to suffer any more depreciation and heartache...I am now with this..
Its obviously an affliction I suffer with...
Still wish I had the old 300Tdi though...
I wonder how many others have as interesting a Landrover history??
N.
Edited by heightswitch on Tuesday 6th November 23:17
Edited by heightswitch on Tuesday 6th November 23:20
Edited by heightswitch on Tuesday 6th November 23:43
Edited by heightswitch on Tuesday 6th November 23:48
Well, I had a Puma 110 for the same mileage / period of time as you and, more or less, suffered exactly the same problems as you with the result that I sold it as soon as the warranty expired. The rear cross member is absolutely typical - had to have mine resprayed. Whoever thought that paint is rustproofing is a joker. It's like the customer is still finishing the build for them. Whilst I was really cross that I had to sell it, I also really miss it.
The TD5 is one of my favourite engines...
As for TC reacting 'too fast' or being 'too sensitive', what utter pisch! TC will respond to wheel spin... If you have a spinning wheel, you have lost grip and at least 50% of your power through that spinning wheel (100% if you haven't engaged CDL). You want TC to respond quickly.
If TC is causing problems, I'd suggest that someone is driving too aggressively.
I drive Defender on the slippery stuff ALL the time and don't have a problem with it.
Back to the OP... If you want something for towing, I'd suggest a D4 (possibly commercial). Fantastic tug and brilliant in the slippery stuff.
M
As for TC reacting 'too fast' or being 'too sensitive', what utter pisch! TC will respond to wheel spin... If you have a spinning wheel, you have lost grip and at least 50% of your power through that spinning wheel (100% if you haven't engaged CDL). You want TC to respond quickly.
If TC is causing problems, I'd suggest that someone is driving too aggressively.
I drive Defender on the slippery stuff ALL the time and don't have a problem with it.
Back to the OP... If you want something for towing, I'd suggest a D4 (possibly commercial). Fantastic tug and brilliant in the slippery stuff.
M
lost in espace said:
I have a 110CSW TD5 with tc, its kicked in a couple of times on muddy tracks. Wish I had anti stall, forever stalling it. Its either trottle full on or full off it seems, and if you don't give it beans it stalls very easily.
Nah, that's your driving as the TD5 already has 'anti-stall'... Technically, all EFI systems have some element of 'anti-stall', it's just that the parameters for it on the TDCi engine were tweaked and then turned into a feature!!M
Moto said:
I'm looking at replacing the existing 90 with a slightly newer one. As I hire trailers for a living, I'm always towing them across fields which can be wet or muddy, especially throughout the last 6 months, and use diff lock all the time to get me back to the tarmac. Even then, I sometimes struggle and often wonder whether T/C would be worthwhile on the next Defender. A comment in a recent forum said they had to accelerate hard before the T/C kicked in as at low throttle it's easily confused? This seems pretty crap to me, but I'd be interested to know other experiences.
TCS is very good, it basically simulates having diff lockers but with less expense, more steering and less chance of breaking something.As for how it works, understanding this will help.
1. To know when to use TCS it needs to know that the wheel is spinning. On a normal LAndy with centre diff lock this means the left and right wheels can spin at different speeds. So unless this is happening how will it know to activate the TCS? So this is part of the reason to why you need to keep on the throttle.
2. The other reason is quite simple, a diff always splits torque 50:50, however without resistance you won't see any wheel horse power (a bit like loading an engine). So if you have one wheel spinning and the other not moving you are seeing almost no hp at both wheels. By applying the ABS to the spinning wheel it'll "load" it, meaning HP at the wheel will be seen, thus forcing the other wheel to rotate.
So again without keeping on the throttle this simply can't happen.
If you don't think you'll like this don't worry about getting it and opt for some aftermarket ARB air lockers instead.
300bhp/ton said:
2. The other reason is quite simple, a diff always splits torque 50:50, however without resistance you won't see any wheel horse power (a bit like loading an engine). So if you have one wheel spinning and the other not moving you are seeing almost no hp at both wheels. By applying the ABS to the spinning wheel it'll "load" it, meaning HP at the wheel will be seen, thus forcing the other wheel to rotate.
I'll throw something else into the melting pot here.A diff will always transmit the power through the path of least resistance. On a single axle, if you have one wheel with traction (tarmac, etc...) and the other without traction (ice, mud, lifted off ground, etc...), you're just going to end up spinning the wheel without traction. TC will work out that this wheel is spinning and apply the brakes to that wheel.
All that TC is doing is providing resistance... With this resistance, the diff will continue to send the power to the path of least resistance, which should now be the wheel with good traction.
M
Yep.
The distinction is about torque, the diff always splits this equally, however lots of torque doesn't mean lots of HP without load.
In this respect its like revving an engine in neutral, holding it at 5000rpm it'll be making almost no HP. Load the engine with a 'brake' device and you'll get HP.
HP is what makes the vehicle move, but you are completely correct about resistance.
The distinction is about torque, the diff always splits this equally, however lots of torque doesn't mean lots of HP without load.
In this respect its like revving an engine in neutral, holding it at 5000rpm it'll be making almost no HP. Load the engine with a 'brake' device and you'll get HP.
HP is what makes the vehicle move, but you are completely correct about resistance.
mikeh501 said:
Save your money. Get a locking diff for the rear axle from arb or Ashcroft, and get some better tyres.
Still think it would be cheaper and more effective to do the above than have to sell a defender just to get traction control. Locking diffs will be more effective than TC when off road, and unless your completely hamfisted over very difficult terrain (not a muddy field) your not going to be breaking half shafts. The tyres will still make the biggest difference tho.I had TCS on my previous TD5 ( together with ABS ) and found that both systems were ok. My Defender got properly used too across the farm and when shooting, frequently being out on the rough. I had BFG ATs all round and did around 25k a year in it which was fine. When I toned down the mileage I went to BFG MTs which were great off road but noisy on it.
If you were buying second hand and it was on the truck then great it's a bonus, would I spec it in on a new truck, probably not. I did like the anti stall and hill descent though.
If you were buying second hand and it was on the truck then great it's a bonus, would I spec it in on a new truck, probably not. I did like the anti stall and hill descent though.
camel_landy said:
lost in espace said:
I have a 110CSW TD5 with tc, its kicked in a couple of times on muddy tracks. Wish I had anti stall, forever stalling it. Its either trottle full on or full off it seems, and if you don't give it beans it stalls very easily.
Nah, that's your driving as the TD5 already has 'anti-stall'... Technically, all EFI systems have some element of 'anti-stall', it's just that the parameters for it on the TDCi engine were tweaked and then turned into a feature!!M
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