Land Rover Defender 90 - Please help me buy one!
Discussion
Morning Chaps,
I'll cut to the chase here, I'm about to buy a Defender 90 simply because I have always wanted one, and the problem is I know literally nothing about them!
The closest I have come to a Land Rover was when my mum bought a brand new 1996 Range Rover 'Classic' Vogue SE TDi in Beluga Black... and it LITTERALLY fell to bits over the course of 4 years. Other than that it was quite the luxury barge...
Anyway, I've got my eye on a local Defender 90 for sale and the spec is as follows:
2002 TD5 with 85k on the clock in dark metallic blue.
It's a 'county station wagon' apparently but has no rear seats, just the rear windows.
Full service history, two keys etc.
Facelift front on it (the latest style grille and lights etc)
Few fancy bits like LED light clusters on the rear, chequer plate, big chunky alloys.
It's also had a 'stage 2 upgrade' whatever that means? Consists of: larger Intercooler, silicone piping, ECU, stainless exhaust system, EGR blanking.
Fully waxoyled.
OME shocks and steering damper.
It appears to be in very tidy condition indeed, no rust or dents/scratches on the outside apart from a few minor bits and pieces consistent with the age and mileage. The interior is also pretty immaculate and without wear. It certainly hasn't been a working vehicle, more of a Chelsea Tractor...
My questions are:
What sort of value would you put on a 2002 TD5 90 with that kind of spec? The owner wants about £10k ONO.
What's the deal with the engine upgrades? Good thing/bad thing?
Anything else at all I should be aware of about this type of vehicle? Anything I should look for?
Thanks in advance, and hopefully I can be a Land Rover owner soon!
I'll cut to the chase here, I'm about to buy a Defender 90 simply because I have always wanted one, and the problem is I know literally nothing about them!
The closest I have come to a Land Rover was when my mum bought a brand new 1996 Range Rover 'Classic' Vogue SE TDi in Beluga Black... and it LITTERALLY fell to bits over the course of 4 years. Other than that it was quite the luxury barge...
Anyway, I've got my eye on a local Defender 90 for sale and the spec is as follows:
2002 TD5 with 85k on the clock in dark metallic blue.
It's a 'county station wagon' apparently but has no rear seats, just the rear windows.
Full service history, two keys etc.
Facelift front on it (the latest style grille and lights etc)
Few fancy bits like LED light clusters on the rear, chequer plate, big chunky alloys.
It's also had a 'stage 2 upgrade' whatever that means? Consists of: larger Intercooler, silicone piping, ECU, stainless exhaust system, EGR blanking.
Fully waxoyled.
OME shocks and steering damper.
It appears to be in very tidy condition indeed, no rust or dents/scratches on the outside apart from a few minor bits and pieces consistent with the age and mileage. The interior is also pretty immaculate and without wear. It certainly hasn't been a working vehicle, more of a Chelsea Tractor...
My questions are:
What sort of value would you put on a 2002 TD5 90 with that kind of spec? The owner wants about £10k ONO.
What's the deal with the engine upgrades? Good thing/bad thing?
Anything else at all I should be aware of about this type of vehicle? Anything I should look for?
Thanks in advance, and hopefully I can be a Land Rover owner soon!
Personally, I stay away from engine 'upgrades'... If you want a fast car, buy a fast car, DON'T buy a Defender!
The main thing is to check the overall condition of the major components such as the drive train, chassis & bulkhead. Don't get suckered in by 'Bling'... Seeing lots of 'Bling' on a Defender rings alarm bells with me as I often find the important things have been missed!
Here's your starter for 10:
Finally, check what this car is registered as??!!?? You often see 'Hard Top' conversions where owners have made them look like Station Wagons by fitting windows.
M
The main thing is to check the overall condition of the major components such as the drive train, chassis & bulkhead. Don't get suckered in by 'Bling'... Seeing lots of 'Bling' on a Defender rings alarm bells with me as I often find the important things have been missed!
Here's your starter for 10:
- Service history - Does it have one. DIY will be fine, as long as there is proof, receipts, etc... They need servicing at least every 6k, more if used off-road.
- Parts - Have they used decent parts in servicing as some after market parts are made of cheese!!
- Tyres - Are they a decent make? If someone has scrimped on tyres, what else have they scrimped on?
- Chassis condition - Have a very good look & tap everything. There are nooks everywhere which will trap mud & moisture and cause rot. Check inside outriggers, top of chassis rails and the rear cross member.
- Brake lines - Run on top of the chassis rails... Trapped mud causes these to rot through.
Finally, check what this car is registered as??!!?? You often see 'Hard Top' conversions where owners have made them look like Station Wagons by fitting windows.
M
Thanks for the advice so far
I've checked: the car is registered as a late 2002 2.5 TD5 County 121bhp.
Plus the rear seats actually come with the car, they were removed when it was new and dry stored and are therefore 'mint'.
The checker plate is just a 2" deep strip all along the side sills. It's not covered in the stuff thankfully.
I can't work out pricing either... In PH's classifieds there are examples like 2002 models with 140k on them for £12,995 and 2004 models with 80k on the clock for £9995. Both in tidy condition. Bizarre.
I've checked: the car is registered as a late 2002 2.5 TD5 County 121bhp.
Plus the rear seats actually come with the car, they were removed when it was new and dry stored and are therefore 'mint'.
The checker plate is just a 2" deep strip all along the side sills. It's not covered in the stuff thankfully.
I can't work out pricing either... In PH's classifieds there are examples like 2002 models with 140k on them for £12,995 and 2004 models with 80k on the clock for £9995. Both in tidy condition. Bizarre.
I'd walk away from anything Defender-shaped that claims to be "tuned".
Tuned = ragged when it comes to proper Land Rovers. Chances are although matey boy chucked money at the ECU and easy bolt-on upgrades, everything downstream won't have been touched, so it'll have increased wear on the boxes, the UJs, the half shafts.....as Camel Landy says, it you want fast, buy fast.
Unless you really know what you're getting in to, it's a heck of a wedge to spend on a car that turns out to be not what you thought/hoped/read in the advert. Get a more normal one (for less), get used to it, then see about more power etc.
And Defenders have never really had a "facelift" except for the deeper air con radiator grill and the SVX with it's funky headlight clusters, so whatever the seller is proffing as a facelift will be bolt on tat from Craddocks.
Tuned = ragged when it comes to proper Land Rovers. Chances are although matey boy chucked money at the ECU and easy bolt-on upgrades, everything downstream won't have been touched, so it'll have increased wear on the boxes, the UJs, the half shafts.....as Camel Landy says, it you want fast, buy fast.
Unless you really know what you're getting in to, it's a heck of a wedge to spend on a car that turns out to be not what you thought/hoped/read in the advert. Get a more normal one (for less), get used to it, then see about more power etc.
And Defenders have never really had a "facelift" except for the deeper air con radiator grill and the SVX with it's funky headlight clusters, so whatever the seller is proffing as a facelift will be bolt on tat from Craddocks.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 12th March 13:44
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 12th March 13:46
Yup, the light surrounds and grill are bolt-on tat. As is the front bumper with built-in running lights.
It also looks as though it's been lowered in line with the current trend for blinged up Defenders.
It all looks a bit half arsed to me and has overtones of turd polishing.
Granted it's not bad, but there are better, less tinkered with trucks out there.
It also looks as though it's been lowered in line with the current trend for blinged up Defenders.
It all looks a bit half arsed to me and has overtones of turd polishing.
Granted it's not bad, but there are better, less tinkered with trucks out there.
If I was to contribute I would just say it seems a tad expensive to me...
My old man bought a 55 plate 90 County in black with 36k, 1 private owner and FLRSH from a Land Rover main dealer for £12,000 with 12 months warranty and the usual main dealer trimmings about 6 months ago.
My advise would be to look for a standard vehicle and add your own bling should you wish to do so..
My old man bought a 55 plate 90 County in black with 36k, 1 private owner and FLRSH from a Land Rover main dealer for £12,000 with 12 months warranty and the usual main dealer trimmings about 6 months ago.
My advise would be to look for a standard vehicle and add your own bling should you wish to do so..
Going against the flow, I say get it, £10k isn't outrageous and it looks and sounds fairly tidy. You say you have checked for rot and the chassis has been waxoyled recently? all good.
With regards to the engine tweeks, it would be interesting to know who did them but they will improve the driving experience as you won't need to thrash the engine to make progress. Doesn't look lowered to me.
With regards to the engine tweeks, it would be interesting to know who did them but they will improve the driving experience as you won't need to thrash the engine to make progress. Doesn't look lowered to me.
camel_landy said:
Personally, I stay away from engine 'upgrades'... If you want a fast car, buy a fast car, DON'T buy a Defender!
Sorry but can't agree with this and it's a very old man stuck in the mud opinion.If this were true you should also stay away from a Disco 2 because it runs a more aggressive map than the Defender does....
Op, I thnk you are being given some very very ppor advice from a couple of members on here, purely because the "style" of this Defender goes against what they like. This is very bigoted and rather biased IMO.
If the style of this Defender appeals to you, then it should be considered. As doing all these mods yourself would cost a lot more than buying a Defender with them already fitted.
But sadly this is one of the big downers of Land Rover ownership (espcially Defenders), that there is a massive contingency of old farts who will basically hate anything the factory didn't do. Despite LR cocking up big time on more than one occasion.
The biggest thing to remember about Defenders is this - almost every part is changable. This means they can always be repaired and almost never need throwing away.
This also means they generally hold their money well too, hence why you'll struggle to buy a Defender of any age for less than £3k in decent condition.
Rust is a big bug bear on LR's. So you'll want to craw under and take a small hammer and screw driver with you. Check the chassis, the rear cross member is prone to rotting (don't be afraid if it is a bit rusty, most TD5's are by now). Just make sure it isn't too bad. Replacement rear cross members can be fitted, although are a fair amount of work.
Check the inside rail of the chassis above the rear axle. Check the outriggers (again these can be replaced).
Check the bulkhead around the top door hinge area and windscreen hinge. Although this shouldn't be an issue. Check the footwells (pull up the mats). And check the general condition of the body panels, over the years LR have thinned the material on the panels and Td5 vehicles dent easier than earlier ones.
Check the bottom of the doors as these are prone to corrosion.
Check for oil leaks, if you find none be concerned
Seriously, Landy's leak. Oil out and water in, this is perfectly normal behaviour, so don't fret. Check the inside and outside of each wheel, hub seals are a common failure, but easy to replace. Gearbox and engine and diffs can leak too, but as long as it isn't excessive I really wouldn't worry.
The transfer box is the LT230, this is a well proven unit and has been in production for a long long time. Make sure you can select low range and diff lock, it might be stiff if the current owner has never used these. Again this is a replaceable item should the worse happen.
The Td5 uses the R380 5 speed gearbox, which is basically a slightly revised LT77 gearbox and is well proven. These do fail, but are cheap and easy to replace. Make sure you can select all gears and that it isn't noisy when in use. It might be a little clunky and they don't like being rushed.
Check the handbrake, make sure there is not excessive movement in the lever. With the brake applied if you put it in 1st high range and lift off the clutch it should stall or not really want to move. If it does then there might be a rear oil seal leak on the transfer box. Not a biggy, but a good haggling point.
Check for clonks when you test drive it. The suspension system isn't all that complex but does have a number of bushes and track rod ends, all of which can and do wear. So any clonks are likely from them. Again easy fixes, but worth checking.
Engine wise, the Td5 is a well proven engine and has a wealth of aftermarket tuning experience. It should be smooth and not smoke excessively, although some black smoke is fine. Look for blue or white smoke (not condensation) though.
Also try and find out what has been done to the engine. A bigger intercooler simply cools the intake air, this will never cause any harm ever and is only a good thing. However it is normal to alter the map on the ECU and play with the boost settings. Places like Allisport, Jermey J Fearn, Twisted Performance and others make a living from doing this, as well as running competition cars. If the engine couldn't take it, then they simply wouldn't exist.
It's also worth noting that LR's stock map on the TD5 is one crappy map. The D2 is better (and makes 16hp more) but is still nothing to write home about tbh. So a mapped car is generally no bad thing so long as it is a good map and not rapping up high EGTs.
TD5's have had a few issues over the years, but as a rule it has only affected a small minority of them. If this one seems fine, then chances are it is, and if it isn't you probably wouldn't be able to tell, so risk wise would be no worse than buying any other car.
If the style of this Defender appeals to you, then it should be considered. As doing all these mods yourself would cost a lot more than buying a Defender with them already fitted.
But sadly this is one of the big downers of Land Rover ownership (espcially Defenders), that there is a massive contingency of old farts who will basically hate anything the factory didn't do. Despite LR cocking up big time on more than one occasion.
The biggest thing to remember about Defenders is this - almost every part is changable. This means they can always be repaired and almost never need throwing away.
This also means they generally hold their money well too, hence why you'll struggle to buy a Defender of any age for less than £3k in decent condition.
Rust is a big bug bear on LR's. So you'll want to craw under and take a small hammer and screw driver with you. Check the chassis, the rear cross member is prone to rotting (don't be afraid if it is a bit rusty, most TD5's are by now). Just make sure it isn't too bad. Replacement rear cross members can be fitted, although are a fair amount of work.
Check the inside rail of the chassis above the rear axle. Check the outriggers (again these can be replaced).
Check the bulkhead around the top door hinge area and windscreen hinge. Although this shouldn't be an issue. Check the footwells (pull up the mats). And check the general condition of the body panels, over the years LR have thinned the material on the panels and Td5 vehicles dent easier than earlier ones.
Check the bottom of the doors as these are prone to corrosion.
Check for oil leaks, if you find none be concerned
Seriously, Landy's leak. Oil out and water in, this is perfectly normal behaviour, so don't fret. Check the inside and outside of each wheel, hub seals are a common failure, but easy to replace. Gearbox and engine and diffs can leak too, but as long as it isn't excessive I really wouldn't worry.
The transfer box is the LT230, this is a well proven unit and has been in production for a long long time. Make sure you can select low range and diff lock, it might be stiff if the current owner has never used these. Again this is a replaceable item should the worse happen.
The Td5 uses the R380 5 speed gearbox, which is basically a slightly revised LT77 gearbox and is well proven. These do fail, but are cheap and easy to replace. Make sure you can select all gears and that it isn't noisy when in use. It might be a little clunky and they don't like being rushed.
Check the handbrake, make sure there is not excessive movement in the lever. With the brake applied if you put it in 1st high range and lift off the clutch it should stall or not really want to move. If it does then there might be a rear oil seal leak on the transfer box. Not a biggy, but a good haggling point.
Check for clonks when you test drive it. The suspension system isn't all that complex but does have a number of bushes and track rod ends, all of which can and do wear. So any clonks are likely from them. Again easy fixes, but worth checking.
Engine wise, the Td5 is a well proven engine and has a wealth of aftermarket tuning experience. It should be smooth and not smoke excessively, although some black smoke is fine. Look for blue or white smoke (not condensation) though.
Also try and find out what has been done to the engine. A bigger intercooler simply cools the intake air, this will never cause any harm ever and is only a good thing. However it is normal to alter the map on the ECU and play with the boost settings. Places like Allisport, Jermey J Fearn, Twisted Performance and others make a living from doing this, as well as running competition cars. If the engine couldn't take it, then they simply wouldn't exist.
It's also worth noting that LR's stock map on the TD5 is one crappy map. The D2 is better (and makes 16hp more) but is still nothing to write home about tbh. So a mapped car is generally no bad thing so long as it is a good map and not rapping up high EGTs.
TD5's have had a few issues over the years, but as a rule it has only affected a small minority of them. If this one seems fine, then chances are it is, and if it isn't you probably wouldn't be able to tell, so risk wise would be no worse than buying any other car.
Possibily another can of worms, but much later 'trucks' can be had for 10k, these can also be the later TDCi varients. From a quick search for 1k DIY or 2k for a man to do it for you, a Truck can be converted to a 'station wagon'.
Anyone want to comment on this approach for getting a more modern version for less money, stand fast those who think it won't be standard anymore or as per the V5/LR register.
Anyone want to comment on this approach for getting a more modern version for less money, stand fast those who think it won't be standard anymore or as per the V5/LR register.
Edited by HarryW on Wednesday 13th March 17:06
Crossflow Kid said:
300bhp/ton said:
A bigger intercooler simply cools the intake air, this will never cause any harm ever and is only a good thing
Oh right. So why does the UK's biggest manufacturer of replacement heads void any warranty if the intercooler has been fiddled with?Gassing Station | Land Rover | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff