Thinking of buying a mid to late 90s Defender

[bernhund]

The dreaded time has arrived to sell my beloved Noble because I have too many financial commitments that are about to be tipped over the edge by university costs for my daughter. As well as the Noble I have a Series 2A that gets a bit of winter use and has really been there to get me out of trouble when there's localised flooding and snow etc. The idea is to sell both and maybe buy a mid to late 90's Defender for around £10K. So what do I get for my money and how reliable would a diesel be? If, for example, I found one that had a fairly recent engine rebuild, would it be likely to behave for a while? I know things aren't as clearcut as that but I know very little about them. I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks

[300bhp/ton]

bernhund said:

The dreaded time has arrived to sell my beloved Noble because I have too many financial commitments that are about to be tipped over the edge by university costs for my daughter. As well as the Noble I have a Series 2A that gets a bit of winter use and has really been there to get me out of trouble when there's localised flooding and snow etc. The idea is to sell both and maybe buy a mid to late 90's Defender for around £10K. So what do I get for my money and how reliable would a diesel be? If, for example, I found one that had a fairly recent engine rebuild, would it be likely to behave for a while? I know things aren't as clearcut as that but I know very little about them. I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks

Engines are generally fine, I would think finding one with an engine rebuild would be a challenge as it's not really a common thing to do. Any reason you are saying about the engines?


Personally I'd buy on condition. Nothing else pretty much. An old one could easily be better than a newer one. Although not always.

Major problem areas are rust. The chassis will, can and does rust. Common place it the rear cross member and chassis legs, although body out riggers can be an issue too. If you are a Series owner you'll know this kind of thing though. And while the 90/Defender is chassis is different to a Series, it's still basically the same thing using the same design and construction.

Bulkheads are another area. Everything is fixable too.

In terms of changes. There have been very few. Although due to the subtle nature of the changes all 90's seem to drive and feel slightly different, even ones of the same age.

Overall as they get newer they have got a little more refined with a little more power. But it's only a mild change. And there is no reason why you can't buy an older version and fit a more modern engine too it either.


They all leak - seriously!!!! Water in and oil out. Plenty of things to clonk and knock too. Most of it is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about and anything more major is usually cheap and easy to fix.



Something to ask yourself though - why a Defender?


And have you driven one? If not, then I highly recommend having a go, as even a late Td5 isn't really a million miles away from driving a Series Land Rover. They are certainly a lot closer than comparing them to anything modern.


And remember, if you think that a Defender will be too noisy, not comfy enough or lacks elbow room, then consider looking at a Range Rover Classic or Discovery 1. All three of these are very similar and share things like engines, axles, suspension, diffs and basic chassis design. This means an RRC or Disco can and will drive and feel much like a Defender with the same off road abilities, but will offer more elbow room and comfort with much better NVH.


Another option would be to consider a Jeep Wrangler. A vehicle that shares much with the Defender and has an even larger heritage. £10k would either get you a minter of a late TJ with cash to spare, or you might even get a JK.


I'm a huge Land Rover fan. But when considering a Defender, unless you need the towing ability, it's foolish to not consider a Jeep as an alternative.

The main advantages of a Jeep are you'll get a bit more for your money, although they too have very good residuals. But you'll get more vehicle for your money and more options.

For example a Wrangler offers you things like an automatic gearbox, air conditioning and the option of a 4.0 170bhp straight 6 engine.

[camel_landy]

Buy on condition and avoid 'bling'.

...and if there's chequer plate over the rear crossmember, run!!

M

[bernhund]

Thanks guys. I'm more than happy about the basic nature of the Defender and not after creature comforts at all. My series is just a little too agricultural if I wanted to use it often.
I like the shape of the Defender and I would like something that I won't be too precious about. I can't imagine many people being too keen to really use a posh RR in snow and ice in case it gets a dent.
This is in the classifieds in PH and may well be a PH'er from this forum http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/l... In my LR ignorant mind, it would appear to be a good buy due to the fairly recent rebuild and a lot of extras. I can't imagine someone spending on all the extras when it's a rust box? Any views on that particular Landy?
Obviously I don't expect your comments in public so if you want to let me know your thoughts, then please contact me directly. Cheers

[budrover]

Heart of a defender is the chassis and bulkhead ...if these are rotten or bodged your onto a 'hiding' at some stage.

I would type in 'galvanised or galv chassis' on e-bay ...you see some quite nice defenders rebuilt by retired engineers who have painstakingly rebuilt a Tdi engine defender with chassis and bulkhead...new suspension and bushes / brakelines and exhaust.... a good starting point for defender ownership without the cost !

[300bhp/ton]

bernhund said:

Thanks guys. I'm more than happy about the basic nature of the Defender and not after creature comforts at all. My series is just a little too agricultural if I wanted to use it often.
I like the shape of the Defender and I would like something that I won't be too precious about. I can't imagine many people being too keen to really use a posh RR in snow and ice in case it gets a dent.
This is in the classifieds in PH and may well be a PH'er from this forum http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/l... In my LR ignorant mind, it would appear to be a good buy due to the fairly recent rebuild and a lot of extras. I can't imagine someone spending on all the extras when it's a rust box? Any views on that particular Landy?
Obviously I don't expect your comments in public so if you want to let me know your thoughts, then please contact me directly. Cheers

It doesn't sound like a bad vehicle and the pics make it look tidy. But you'd really need to go and drive it and inspect it to really tell.

Personally it sounds like a lot of bits, most of which you don't need. If it's a road vehicle then a list and castor corrected arms are just a waste that will only hinder on road ability.

Not keen on the detachable steering wheel on an off roader either and those seats look like they wouldn't be very comfy on the road.


As said, it doesn't sound bad, but a lot of the items they've listed are just normal service and maintenance items and not really something that should be in an advert. And if you don't really need a CB radio or a lot of the other tat, then I'd say it seems like it's a £5000-6000 90 that you are going to pay £2k+ over the top for the extras.



Just as a for instance:


This is quite a bit cheaper, just as rugged and capable, seats 4 people better and has a nicer interior. Not too mention is a LOT faster for only a marginal drop in mpg. And you can take the roof off too if you want. It's also newer and has lower mileage.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2013...

[bernhund]

I have to admit the Wrangler does look good value. What are the pitfalls though?

[camel_landy]

bernhund said:

I have to admit the Wrangler does look good value. What are the pitfalls though?

Availability of bits & bling and its drink problem!!!

Here in the UK, you have companies falling over themselves to supply you with bolt-on bits and salvage parts. It takes a bit more hunting to find them for the Jeeps or ship them in from the USA.

That said, I really like them & the Cherokees too.

M

[300bhp/ton]

bernhund said:

I have to admit the Wrangler does look good value. What are the pitfalls though?

No real pitfalls apart from maybe some peoples image/opinion of them. Although in the States and other parts of the World they are viewed very much how we view the Defender.


Don't get me wrong, I'm a green blooded Land Rover fan (currently own 2 and half Land Rovers and have owned several over the years including Defenders and classic Rangies).

But there is no denying you pay a lot for the Defender image and name. Some of this you recoup in strong residuals, but it doesn't mean they are the best value for money.

The biggest benefits of the Defender are it's 3500kg towing ability and the large cargo area for hauling. However a 90 only really seats 2 people properly.

A Wrangler on the other hand has a truly crap tow rating, but it seats 4 people very well. You can sort of see that LR stuck with the utility side of the Land Rover for the Defender, while Jeep opted more for a recreational vehicle.

But they are really rather similar in base design, and lets not forget the first Land Rover (centre steer) was actually built on a Jeep chassis, and the GP1 Jeep was the inspiration for the 'Land Rover'.

Over the years Landy took the 80" Series 1, then 2, 2a, 3, Stage 1 and a big overhaul into the Ninety and re-branded Defender.

Jeep went through a Series of CJ's akin to the Series Land Rovers, then in the 80's did a big overhaul and we got the YJ Wrangler.

However later TJ Wranglers are easily in your price range.

Defender	Wrangler TJ
Ladder chassis	Ladder chassis
92.9" wheelbase	93.1" wheelbase
Body on frame construction	Body on frame construction
Live axles and coil suspension	Live axles and coil suspension

+ points for Defender

• Very strong residuals
• Towing ability
• Hauling ability
• UK perceived image
• off road ability

- points

• can rust
• high maintenance
• limited engine, transmission and options, low bhp

+ points for Wrangler

• Good residuals
• Comfy for 4 people
• Better road manners performance vs a Defender
• Better engine, transmission and options
• Off road ability

- Points:

• UK image
• crap towing & hauling ability

Wranglers are a steel body, so check for rust, although not normally an issue and chassis normally stand up better.

Rear axles can fail on them (Dana 35), but they are arguably stronger than the Rover P4 axles on a Defender. So I don't see it as an issue.

The 4.0 litre is very stout. 170+ bhp and will manage 21-22mpg on a run no probs with an auto, where a Tdi Defender with a manual will be 24-26mpg for the same use. The 4.0 litre can be a bit juicy if you drive it hard, but then a 4.0 manual Wrangler will do 0-60mph in about 8'ish seconds, compared to about 14-16 sec for a Defender.

People say the 2.5 petrol Wrangler is gutless, which is unfair. They are faster and more powerful than a Tdi Defender and will return similar mpg. Although they do lack the low down grunt if you were towing.

[piecost76]

Cheap enough?

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic23754.html

Also well worth asking on that forum for Defender advice. Obvious Defender/LR bias mind.

[300bhp/ton]

camel_landy said:

bernhund said:

I have to admit the Wrangler does look good value. What are the pitfalls though?

Availability of bits & bling and its drink problem!!!

Here in the UK, you have companies falling over themselves to supply you with bolt-on bits and salvage parts. It takes a bit more hunting to find them for the Jeeps or ship them in from the USA.

That said, I really like them & the Cherokees too.

M

Actually, that's a good point. The worst thing I've found with Jeeps is that Jeep UK are tragically useless and have no interest in Jeeps, customers and specifically the Wrangler.

That said, many parts are easy to get these days and the internet is a wonderful tool for this. But some bits might be a bit more pricey than for a LR and you might have to wait a few days instead of getting a bit that day.

But if I'm honest, this is no worse than running an older Honda or Nissan.

[anonymous-user]

Bloody hell. No mention of a Discovery yet.

[camel_landy]

Crossflow Kid said:

Bloody hell. No mention of a Discovery yet.

Keep up at the back...

(Check 300's first post...)

M

[anonymous-user]

camel_landy said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Bloody hell. No mention of a Discovery yet.

Keep up at the back...

(Check 300's first post...)

M

Fair comment. Just the one mention, hence I missed it. To be honest I was expecting the usual long-winded explanation of how a Discovery is a Defender really, which is also a Range Rover. And a Freelander. All at once.

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

Fair comment. Just the one mention, hence I missed it. To be honest I was expecting the usual long-winded explanation of how a Discovery is a Defender really, which is also a Range Rover. And a Freelander. All at once.

There is a word for people like you

[camel_landy]

Ahem <cough>...

Let's keep it on topic pls.

M

[bernhund]

All good information, thank you. I do like to think I could use the vehicle to tow if necessary as my old Series 2a has dragged my wife's car out of trouble in snow on more than one occasion. I live half way up a steep hill in Sevenoaks where there are plenty of roads that become impassable in snow or even heavy rain. I also like the idea that I might get to work still in bad weather as I'm self employed and don't see a penny if I don't get in. This means taking power tools and general building stuff.
This is not a vehicle that gets used everyday as I have a van for that, it is to have a bit of fun in and be a work horse when required. Whatever the final decision, it's going to be very different from the Noble! (probably no less comfortable though!)

[300bhp/ton]

For proper towing, the Land Rover is the choice, as it has the legal tow rating. And for hauling the spartan rear load bay is ideal.

The Jeep has a pathetic tow rating, IIRC 1000lbs in the US but maybe 1000kg in the UK. This doesn't mean it isn't physically capable of towing, as the same engines, transmissions and axles are all used on other vehicles with much higher tow ratings. And a solid ladder frame chassis is evidently more than up to it.

But I think it's low tow rating is due to politics more than anything. If you want to tow in the US you buy a Dodge Ram or Silverado, not a SWB off roader. On this basis I think they restrict the rated tow rating to prevent the Wrangler taking sales from bigger trucks, not because it can't do it.

So pulling a car out would be no probs for one, but you can't hook up a trailer and tow a race car with one.

Rear seats fold forward or can be removed. So you can get a similar sized load bay to a D90 if you need too.




My advice would be to go and drive a couple of each and see which you prefer from the drivers seats.