modern auto box in RRC
Discussion
Yes. 
4 years of research. And I'm back to the ZF4.
The problem is simply that boxes after the ZF4 era are all fully electronic and not only have their own TCU but are linked in to the engine ECU.
The retro-fit, aftermarket is years behind and there are almost no specialists or after market TCUs.
The closest two boxes are the 6L80 from the Chevy and the 5G Tronic from Mercedes/Chrysler.
The former is very long so you'd need to divorce the transfer case. You also have to push it back further than that so that the output to the front of the TC can clear the gearbox sump pan which kicks out to the right as in all US uses their transfer cases output to the centre.
Once you've got it in you need to be able to control it. The TCU that is available has to be mapped. All the standRd maps are too simple and highly aggressive. The U.S. aftermarket just wants to bang in rapid, aggressive and nasty changes.
There is a six speed version of the 4L80 called the TCI 6x. It uses a couple of additional overdrives. Again, the mapping means really aggressive, drag strip changes and also when you look at the ratios they are useless for a Rangie application, even if you change the TC ratio from 1.2 to 1
That leaves the Merc box. It is short enough and narrow enough to fit. There is a chap called Russell something who has built a TCU for the Chrysler version but yet again it would require months of road time mapping to even begin to get smooth changes. In the UK, Rakeway have a TCU solution for the box but again it's designed for banging in max rev changes.
MOPAR launched a programable TCU a couple of years back but yet again, it's designed to ramp up the line pressures and slap in rapid, nasty changes.
Long and short of it is that no one has built a TCU and mapped it for smooth, road use let alone for a Rangie.
The solution that I have settled on is to change the hearing on the TC from the standard 1.2 to the 1 so that a typical, modern cruising speed is done at a more sensible RPM. Obviously by making all the gears 20% taller it will impact running in town but I'm not convinced that is actually an issue as it actually looks on paper to make the change points better suited to driving within urban speed limits. Plus, lock up in 4th will be just above 60 instead of 50 which is currently a pain due to so many NSLs now being 50s.
My latest hairbrain idea is whether the two ranges of the LT230 TC could actually be changed sufficiently to make it a Town or Country option instead of on or offroad. My first assumption is that there won't be room to fit the replacement cogs but I'm going to plod along and try and work it out for my own peace of mind.
4 years of research. And I'm back to the ZF4.
The problem is simply that boxes after the ZF4 era are all fully electronic and not only have their own TCU but are linked in to the engine ECU.
The retro-fit, aftermarket is years behind and there are almost no specialists or after market TCUs.
The closest two boxes are the 6L80 from the Chevy and the 5G Tronic from Mercedes/Chrysler.
The former is very long so you'd need to divorce the transfer case. You also have to push it back further than that so that the output to the front of the TC can clear the gearbox sump pan which kicks out to the right as in all US uses their transfer cases output to the centre.
Once you've got it in you need to be able to control it. The TCU that is available has to be mapped. All the standRd maps are too simple and highly aggressive. The U.S. aftermarket just wants to bang in rapid, aggressive and nasty changes.
There is a six speed version of the 4L80 called the TCI 6x. It uses a couple of additional overdrives. Again, the mapping means really aggressive, drag strip changes and also when you look at the ratios they are useless for a Rangie application, even if you change the TC ratio from 1.2 to 1
That leaves the Merc box. It is short enough and narrow enough to fit. There is a chap called Russell something who has built a TCU for the Chrysler version but yet again it would require months of road time mapping to even begin to get smooth changes. In the UK, Rakeway have a TCU solution for the box but again it's designed for banging in max rev changes.
MOPAR launched a programable TCU a couple of years back but yet again, it's designed to ramp up the line pressures and slap in rapid, nasty changes.
Long and short of it is that no one has built a TCU and mapped it for smooth, road use let alone for a Rangie.
The solution that I have settled on is to change the hearing on the TC from the standard 1.2 to the 1 so that a typical, modern cruising speed is done at a more sensible RPM. Obviously by making all the gears 20% taller it will impact running in town but I'm not convinced that is actually an issue as it actually looks on paper to make the change points better suited to driving within urban speed limits. Plus, lock up in 4th will be just above 60 instead of 50 which is currently a pain due to so many NSLs now being 50s.
My latest hairbrain idea is whether the two ranges of the LT230 TC could actually be changed sufficiently to make it a Town or Country option instead of on or offroad. My first assumption is that there won't be room to fit the replacement cogs but I'm going to plod along and try and work it out for my own peace of mind.
DonkeyApple said:
My latest hairbrain idea is whether the two ranges of the LT230 TC could actually be changed sufficiently to make it a Town or Country option instead of on or offroad. My first assumption is that there won't be room to fit the replacement cogs but I'm going to plod along and try and work it out for my own peace of mind.
There's a chap did this with an LT95 many years ago for racing, essentially two different high ranges.I remember it involved more engineering than initially apparent over and above the size of the cogs, but I can remember the specifics. I know there was room but obviously it's not a LT transfer box.
Interesting thoughts on the aftermarket controllers, thank you, not something I'd considered.
Really interesting to hear that the TC concept has already been done. the best thing about my greatest inventions is that someone has usually already invented it. 
The real problem with the modding scene for Rangies is that 80% of the market is all about changes to help them crawl over bigger stones and the other 20% is about making them faster over smaller stones.
Almost no one is focussed on making them even better road cars.
The real problem with the modding scene for Rangies is that 80% of the market is all about changes to help them crawl over bigger stones and the other 20% is about making them faster over smaller stones.
Almost no one is focussed on making them even better road cars.
C Lee Farquar said:
There's a chap did this with an LT95 many years ago for racing, essentially two different high ranges.
I remember it involved more engineering than initially apparent over and above the size of the cogs, but I can remember the specifics. I know there was room but obviously it's not a LT transfer box.
Interesting thoughts on the aftermarket controllers, thank you, not something I'd considered.
Was that Pete Rowe by any chance?I remember it involved more engineering than initially apparent over and above the size of the cogs, but I can remember the specifics. I know there was room but obviously it's not a LT transfer box.
Interesting thoughts on the aftermarket controllers, thank you, not something I'd considered.
What a Land Rover he had!
DonkeyApple said:
Yes.
4 years of research. And I'm back to the ZF4.
The problem is simply that boxes after the ZF4 era are all fully electronic and not only have their own TCU but are linked in to the engine ECU.
The retro-fit, aftermarket is years behind and there are almost no specialists or after market TCUs.
The closest two boxes are the 6L80 from the Chevy and the 5G Tronic from Mercedes/Chrysler.
The former is very long so you'd need to divorce the transfer case. You also have to push it back further than that so that the output to the front of the TC can clear the gearbox sump pan which kicks out to the right as in all US uses their transfer cases output to the centre.
Once you've got it in you need to be able to control it. The TCU that is available has to be mapped. All the standRd maps are too simple and highly aggressive. The U.S. aftermarket just wants to bang in rapid, aggressive and nasty changes.
There is a six speed version of the 4L80 called the TCI 6x. It uses a couple of additional overdrives. Again, the mapping means really aggressive, drag strip changes and also when you look at the ratios they are useless for a Rangie application, even if you change the TC ratio from 1.2 to 1
That leaves the Merc box. It is short enough and narrow enough to fit. There is a chap called Russell something who has built a TCU for the Chrysler version but yet again it would require months of road time mapping to even begin to get smooth changes. In the UK, Rakeway have a TCU solution for the box but again it's designed for banging in max rev changes.
MOPAR launched a programable TCU a couple of years back but yet again, it's designed to ramp up the line pressures and slap in rapid, nasty changes.
Long and short of it is that no one has built a TCU and mapped it for smooth, road use let alone for a Rangie.
The solution that I have settled on is to change the hearing on the TC from the standard 1.2 to the 1 so that a typical, modern cruising speed is done at a more sensible RPM. Obviously by making all the gears 20% taller it will impact running in town but I'm not convinced that is actually an issue as it actually looks on paper to make the change points better suited to driving within urban speed limits. Plus, lock up in 4th will be just above 60 instead of 50 which is currently a pain due to so many NSLs now being 50s.
My latest hairbrain idea is whether the two ranges of the LT230 TC could actually be changed sufficiently to make it a Town or Country option instead of on or offroad. My first assumption is that there won't be room to fit the replacement cogs but I'm going to plod along and try and work it out for my own peace of mind.
I thought the ZF four speed box can overheat if held in the lower gears? Is not wind noise more of a factor affecting comfort at speed than engine rpm?4 years of research. And I'm back to the ZF4.
The problem is simply that boxes after the ZF4 era are all fully electronic and not only have their own TCU but are linked in to the engine ECU.
The retro-fit, aftermarket is years behind and there are almost no specialists or after market TCUs.
The closest two boxes are the 6L80 from the Chevy and the 5G Tronic from Mercedes/Chrysler.
The former is very long so you'd need to divorce the transfer case. You also have to push it back further than that so that the output to the front of the TC can clear the gearbox sump pan which kicks out to the right as in all US uses their transfer cases output to the centre.
Once you've got it in you need to be able to control it. The TCU that is available has to be mapped. All the standRd maps are too simple and highly aggressive. The U.S. aftermarket just wants to bang in rapid, aggressive and nasty changes.
There is a six speed version of the 4L80 called the TCI 6x. It uses a couple of additional overdrives. Again, the mapping means really aggressive, drag strip changes and also when you look at the ratios they are useless for a Rangie application, even if you change the TC ratio from 1.2 to 1
That leaves the Merc box. It is short enough and narrow enough to fit. There is a chap called Russell something who has built a TCU for the Chrysler version but yet again it would require months of road time mapping to even begin to get smooth changes. In the UK, Rakeway have a TCU solution for the box but again it's designed for banging in max rev changes.
MOPAR launched a programable TCU a couple of years back but yet again, it's designed to ramp up the line pressures and slap in rapid, nasty changes.
Long and short of it is that no one has built a TCU and mapped it for smooth, road use let alone for a Rangie.
The solution that I have settled on is to change the hearing on the TC from the standard 1.2 to the 1 so that a typical, modern cruising speed is done at a more sensible RPM. Obviously by making all the gears 20% taller it will impact running in town but I'm not convinced that is actually an issue as it actually looks on paper to make the change points better suited to driving within urban speed limits. Plus, lock up in 4th will be just above 60 instead of 50 which is currently a pain due to so many NSLs now being 50s.
My latest hairbrain idea is whether the two ranges of the LT230 TC could actually be changed sufficiently to make it a Town or Country option instead of on or offroad. My first assumption is that there won't be room to fit the replacement cogs but I'm going to plod along and try and work it out for my own peace of mind.
Can't be that difficult to remap a programmable transmission control unit for smooth changes. How many inputs on a modern autobox?
Road speed
Engine speed
Engine vacuumn
Throttle position
Something to generate engine braking on a downhill
V8 Fettler said:
I thought the ZF four speed box can overheat if held in the lower gears? Is not wind noise more of a factor affecting comfort at speed than engine rpm?
Can't be that difficult to remap a programmable transmission control unit for smooth changes. How many inputs on a modern autobox?
Road speed
Engine speed
Engine vacuumn
Throttle position
Something to generate engine braking on a downhill
I wouldn't have thought that changing the ratio in the TC would result in the box spending more time in lower gears to be honest. But, the joy of changing the overall hearing via the TC is that it is easy to drop the TC in and out so if the 1:1 doesn't result in a better drive than the 1.2 then it costs nothing to swap. Can't be that difficult to remap a programmable transmission control unit for smooth changes. How many inputs on a modern autobox?
Road speed
Engine speed
Engine vacuumn
Throttle position
Something to generate engine braking on a downhill
Re mapping a TCM/TCU for smooth, presictable road use, it is difficult enough that no one has done it. That's obviously a function of demand also but it's a lot of hours driving around with a laptop in different conditions. In addition, as of 2014, there were only two aftermarket TCMs out there, the MOPAR one had only just hit the shelves and there was zero aftermarket support of any credible experience and the one for the 5G was a home brew conversion off the back of another product and again, while the chap came across as extremely knowledgeable there were no customers or specialists in existence.
So, the risk of failure combined with the huge cost of hourly labour to deliver a workable map are killers. But in 2013 there were no solutions and today in 2015 there are probably more than the 2 so this is something that will become doable as time passes.
For RRC, demand for a modern autobox conversion will be be low. Until recently most owners would have run the Rangie into the ground and thrown it away.
Should be possible to develop a closed loop control system for the changes, set minimum and maximum "jerk" levels as part of the programme, no need for extensive road work to plot a map, £££££££ being the limiting factor as always. "Jerk" = rate of change of acceleration.
Should be possible to develop a closed loop control system for the changes, set minimum and maximum "jerk" levels as part of the programme, no need for extensive road work to plot a map, £££££££ being the limiting factor as always. "Jerk" = rate of change of acceleration.
It's also about getting the line pressures right.
Absolutely, it's not been done in the Rangie for the reasons you say, but even when you look at the generic US classic car market the conversions to modern boxes for the purpose of just normal driving still hasn't happened. The majority of customers want banging race changes and the majority of shops just don't have any expertise in this type of modern solution.
It'll happen eventually but I doubt there are enough Rangie owners wanting such a solution as to make it viable.
Absolutely, it's not been done in the Rangie for the reasons you say, but even when you look at the generic US classic car market the conversions to modern boxes for the purpose of just normal driving still hasn't happened. The majority of customers want banging race changes and the majority of shops just don't have any expertise in this type of modern solution.
It'll happen eventually but I doubt there are enough Rangie owners wanting such a solution as to make it viable.
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