Series 3 or 90?
Discussion
Now I'm looking at buying either a Series 3 or 90/Defender, as my budget is only about £3k am I better off getting a decent Series 3 rather than risking picking up a lemon 90? And if I do go with a Series am I better off with the 2.1/4 petrol or the diesel?
Just a little background info, at the moment I don't need a car to get to and from work but that may change soon but if so it will only be a short distance away, it will be needed for the odd motorway journey. I plan on going off roading, nothing too major just the odd pay and play and some greenlaning.
I've already decided if I go for a Series 3 that I'm going to be fitting parabolics and an overdrive but is there anything else I will need to consider when buying one as my only car?
Just a little background info, at the moment I don't need a car to get to and from work but that may change soon but if so it will only be a short distance away, it will be needed for the odd motorway journey. I plan on going off roading, nothing too major just the odd pay and play and some greenlaning.
I've already decided if I go for a Series 3 that I'm going to be fitting parabolics and an overdrive but is there anything else I will need to consider when buying one as my only car?
Sadly £3k won't get you much of a Defender, well technically a Ninety. They weren't called Defenders until the TDI engine was introduced around 1990.
But it is possible for this money. Just expect it to be tatty. But so long as you don't mind this and its fairly solid then I can't see a problem with it.
This age of Ninety is most likely to be fitted with the 2.5 Diesel Turbo unit. Although there are probably a few 2.5 n/a petrols and diesels about too.
The 2.5 diesel turbo is not such a bad engine, a bit noisy and not all that refined. But it'll managed 22-25mpg and will run at 65mph quite comfortably on the motorway.
The good thing with a Defender like this is you can buy any replacement part for it. So if it needs a new section welding into the chassis, or a new bit of body work or engine and so on. Over time and with a bit of money you could take a 1985 Ninety and make it almost identical to a 2005 model if you so wanted.
However it is true that £3k is more likely to get you a very tidy Series III. The Series Land Rover's are quite similar to the Ninety but with some fundamental differences. As long as you know what you are letting yourself in for I see no reason why a Series can't be used in the way you describe.
These are some of the key differences that I think are of importance in regards to running either:
1. Suspension. While leaf suspension is fully capable and with parabolic springs even more so. It'll never ride as well as coils on the road and in most cases won't match coils off road.
So expect a Series Landy to be bumpier, nosier and more harsh with worse handling.
Something else worth noting, while many places claim to sell parabolic suspension, it's actually quite hard to get hold of. And the cheap ones from places like Paddock Spares are actually rather rubbish. From what I've researched there are only 2 makes of parabolic suspension that I'd buy. Both are difficult to get hold of and are expensive. Expect to pay anywhere from £500-1200 to put a good set of parabolics on a Series motor.
2. Engines. As you mention there is a 2.25 petrol and diesel available. Amazingly they are almost the same engine and form the basis of much newer LR engines like the TDI's used up until the end of the 1990's.
A 2.25 petrol should make 72bhp. These run ok, lack the low end grunt off road a bit but should do 60mph+ on the road. They are still noisy though. And despite their modest displacement they won't be economical. Expect 12-17mpg and you won't be disappionted. The diesel makes around 62bhp if I recall correctly. This does impact performance a bit, but they are still usable. The diesel is even nosier. They should be more economical, but low 20's will be about all it'll do.
Choice is yours really on what you prefer.
One thing to note however, at £3k you are likely to find a Series Landy with an engine transplant. V8's will offer similar mpg to the 2.25 petrol and you might see a few Tdi conversions. Perkins engines were also a common swap at one point as I beleive Peugeot ones were too. Afraid I don't have any experience with the non Land Rover engine ones though.
But it might well be worth keeping an eye out for such a vehicle.
3. Gearbox. The 4 speed unit in the Series is far more agricultural in feel (this I personally quite like
) but there is no denying its not as good as the latter 5 speed units. 4 gears will limit crusing ability and mpg. OD units are ok, although some are a pain and unreliable. And a stock 2.25 engine may well struggle to cope either on hills or if you run bigger than stock tyres.
The 4 speed unit is also not as strong, so if it has had an engine swap be warned that the gearbox is likely to be the weak point.
Also Series Landy's are only part time 4wd compared to full time with a Ninety. Not a huge issue maybe, but it does mean they are quite different on the road.
4. Interior. Many Series motors are very spartan inside, often with no trim at all. And the trim kits they did offer were quite basic. There is much the aftermarket can do to improve this, but it'll cost you money.
On the flip side most Ninety's are actually trimmed and feel a lot more civilised. They'll also be less drafty than a Series and with a much better heater.
5. Windows. Ninety's had one peice doors and wind up windows (bar some very early ones). Series motors have slide windows. Now you can actually put Ninety doors on a Series. But it is another thing that is different in stock trim. The slide windows are ofen.
6. Axles. Series motors have weaker axles and they also have a narrower track. This isn't really an issue until you start off roading, and even then only when you start upping the power or tyre size.
But it is worth knowing. Even more so if you find a Series motor with an engine swap.
7. Steering. Most Ninety's will have PAS. No Series will unless retro fitted. Not a huge issue, but it does make a difference.
Your best bet is to drive both and see if you are happy with what a Series Land Rover offers. If not then it has to be Ninety.
However I'd maybe be tempted to look at some Discovery's. They might fit the bill better and are almost identical to a Ninety underneath!
But it is possible for this money. Just expect it to be tatty. But so long as you don't mind this and its fairly solid then I can't see a problem with it.
This age of Ninety is most likely to be fitted with the 2.5 Diesel Turbo unit. Although there are probably a few 2.5 n/a petrols and diesels about too.
The 2.5 diesel turbo is not such a bad engine, a bit noisy and not all that refined. But it'll managed 22-25mpg and will run at 65mph quite comfortably on the motorway.
The good thing with a Defender like this is you can buy any replacement part for it. So if it needs a new section welding into the chassis, or a new bit of body work or engine and so on. Over time and with a bit of money you could take a 1985 Ninety and make it almost identical to a 2005 model if you so wanted.
However it is true that £3k is more likely to get you a very tidy Series III. The Series Land Rover's are quite similar to the Ninety but with some fundamental differences. As long as you know what you are letting yourself in for I see no reason why a Series can't be used in the way you describe.
These are some of the key differences that I think are of importance in regards to running either:
1. Suspension. While leaf suspension is fully capable and with parabolic springs even more so. It'll never ride as well as coils on the road and in most cases won't match coils off road.
So expect a Series Landy to be bumpier, nosier and more harsh with worse handling.
Something else worth noting, while many places claim to sell parabolic suspension, it's actually quite hard to get hold of. And the cheap ones from places like Paddock Spares are actually rather rubbish. From what I've researched there are only 2 makes of parabolic suspension that I'd buy. Both are difficult to get hold of and are expensive. Expect to pay anywhere from £500-1200 to put a good set of parabolics on a Series motor.
2. Engines. As you mention there is a 2.25 petrol and diesel available. Amazingly they are almost the same engine and form the basis of much newer LR engines like the TDI's used up until the end of the 1990's.
A 2.25 petrol should make 72bhp. These run ok, lack the low end grunt off road a bit but should do 60mph+ on the road. They are still noisy though. And despite their modest displacement they won't be economical. Expect 12-17mpg and you won't be disappionted. The diesel makes around 62bhp if I recall correctly. This does impact performance a bit, but they are still usable. The diesel is even nosier. They should be more economical, but low 20's will be about all it'll do.
Choice is yours really on what you prefer.
One thing to note however, at £3k you are likely to find a Series Landy with an engine transplant. V8's will offer similar mpg to the 2.25 petrol and you might see a few Tdi conversions. Perkins engines were also a common swap at one point as I beleive Peugeot ones were too. Afraid I don't have any experience with the non Land Rover engine ones though.
But it might well be worth keeping an eye out for such a vehicle.
3. Gearbox. The 4 speed unit in the Series is far more agricultural in feel (this I personally quite like
) but there is no denying its not as good as the latter 5 speed units. 4 gears will limit crusing ability and mpg. OD units are ok, although some are a pain and unreliable. And a stock 2.25 engine may well struggle to cope either on hills or if you run bigger than stock tyres.The 4 speed unit is also not as strong, so if it has had an engine swap be warned that the gearbox is likely to be the weak point.
Also Series Landy's are only part time 4wd compared to full time with a Ninety. Not a huge issue maybe, but it does mean they are quite different on the road.
4. Interior. Many Series motors are very spartan inside, often with no trim at all. And the trim kits they did offer were quite basic. There is much the aftermarket can do to improve this, but it'll cost you money.
On the flip side most Ninety's are actually trimmed and feel a lot more civilised. They'll also be less drafty than a Series and with a much better heater.
5. Windows. Ninety's had one peice doors and wind up windows (bar some very early ones). Series motors have slide windows. Now you can actually put Ninety doors on a Series. But it is another thing that is different in stock trim. The slide windows are ofen.
6. Axles. Series motors have weaker axles and they also have a narrower track. This isn't really an issue until you start off roading, and even then only when you start upping the power or tyre size.
But it is worth knowing. Even more so if you find a Series motor with an engine swap.
7. Steering. Most Ninety's will have PAS. No Series will unless retro fitted. Not a huge issue, but it does make a difference.
Your best bet is to drive both and see if you are happy with what a Series Land Rover offers. If not then it has to be Ninety.
However I'd maybe be tempted to look at some Discovery's. They might fit the bill better and are almost identical to a Ninety underneath!
What 300bhp said!
Not got much to add really, £3k will buy you a very good series III or a ropey Ninety/90.
I bought a 110 SW 200tdi for £2300 and, although the chassis, bulkead and crossmember were good, the doors were f
ked, the interior very shabby and gearbox needed rebuilding. I ran it for 6 months, did nothing to it and sold it for £2,200.
Look through the Landie mags, check ebay etc. You will find lots of Defenders at that money but many could be moneypits. £1,200 for a new galv chassis. £2,200 fitted.
I also had an ex mil series III 109 which I paid £650 for. With £2,350 extra to spend I could have trimmed it nicely inside and put a 200tdi (or a v8!) and defender box in it which would have made it a really lovely thing.
Not got much to add really, £3k will buy you a very good series III or a ropey Ninety/90.
I bought a 110 SW 200tdi for £2300 and, although the chassis, bulkead and crossmember were good, the doors were f
ked, the interior very shabby and gearbox needed rebuilding. I ran it for 6 months, did nothing to it and sold it for £2,200.Look through the Landie mags, check ebay etc. You will find lots of Defenders at that money but many could be moneypits. £1,200 for a new galv chassis. £2,200 fitted.
I also had an ex mil series III 109 which I paid £650 for. With £2,350 extra to spend I could have trimmed it nicely inside and put a 200tdi (or a v8!) and defender box in it which would have made it a really lovely thing.
P.s. For £3k you could get a decent jap 4x4 which will likely be more reliable, comfortable, economical, faster, quieter etc etc...
Just something to think about!
(In fact, for that you can have my '97 7-seater LWB 2.8TD Shogun for that. FSH, MOT till Autumn, Tax till May, recent service, belts, glow plugs, new battery and 5x new-ish KL71's. Great condition.)
Just something to think about!
(In fact, for that you can have my '97 7-seater LWB 2.8TD Shogun for that. FSH, MOT till Autumn, Tax till May, recent service, belts, glow plugs, new battery and 5x new-ish KL71's. Great condition.)
Nice try, but it's nothing but a Landy for me, it's something I've wanted to own since primary school.
Thanks for the info guys, I knew some of that from hunting about and recently working on rebuilding a Series 3 with a mate, but there's stuff there I didn't know. As for a Series being more spartan/agricultural it doesn't really bother me, it all adds to the character and experience, at least in my mind
The suggestion of a Disco isn't a bad one but the insurance is a tad expensive for what it is (I'm 19, probably should have said before) it's a touch over a grand for a Disco whereas a Series or 90 is much more like £400/500.
Just had another thought, if I were to buy a Series do you think I would be better off buying one in more the 1.5k range and then using the rest to get it how I want or just buy one for 3k and try to find one as I'd like it?
Thanks for the info guys, I knew some of that from hunting about and recently working on rebuilding a Series 3 with a mate, but there's stuff there I didn't know. As for a Series being more spartan/agricultural it doesn't really bother me, it all adds to the character and experience, at least in my mind
The suggestion of a Disco isn't a bad one but the insurance is a tad expensive for what it is (I'm 19, probably should have said before) it's a touch over a grand for a Disco whereas a Series or 90 is much more like £400/500.
Just had another thought, if I were to buy a Series do you think I would be better off buying one in more the 1.5k range and then using the rest to get it how I want or just buy one for 3k and try to find one as I'd like it?
mrdelmonti said:
Just had another thought, if I were to buy a Series do you think I would be better off buying one in more the 1.5k range and then using the rest to get it how I want or just buy one for 3k and try to find one as I'd like it?
I'd look at both and see.You might also pick up a fairly sound by scruffy one for more like £800-1000. If you don't mind painting it and the like. That's the joy with these, you can do so much to them and every part is replaceable!
Go for the series and look for one thats had some cash spent could find one fitted with a galv chassis for that money where a 90 will be aging at will get to a point where it will need chassis repairs. Plus a series is a much more fun vehicle to drive> Could try find a series 2 there even more classic looking and are also tax exempt
Well, I've bought a Series 3 88" petrol just waiting for the payment to clear and delivery, I picked it up for £700, seems to have been looked after, it has a decent pair of seats in the front and the benches in the rear. On the outside it's looking tatty but is sound, its running Rover P6 diffs so has slightly higher gearing but that'll help take off some of strain when on the odd motorway journey and already has para springs all round, although the rears could do with replacing and it needs a lick of paint.
I'll post some pics up when I've got it
I'll post some pics up when I've got it
Here we are, as promised some photo's, she just needs a bit of tidying but is otherwise sound
And I hadn't realised but she's had a full power upgrade with SU Carb, a less restrictive manifold and a better back box. I'm expecting any petrol in it won't hanging around very long
but I don't care, it sounds brilliant.
And I hadn't realised but she's had a full power upgrade with SU Carb, a less restrictive manifold and a better back box. I'm expecting any petrol in it won't hanging around very long
but I don't care, it sounds brilliant.Edited by mrdelmonti on Friday 5th February 17:52
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