New Defender?

[Davel]

Right, I last had a 90 County about 20 years ago.

Since then I've had a few Discoverys and more recently a couple of RRS.

Due to change cars now and was toying with a Defender again.

I'm planning to test drive one next week but have the newer ones improved much in recent years.

Is Air Cond an option yet?

Are they any faster (or less slow) than earlier ones?

Do they corner any better?

I thought that I may get one of these and then get a toy for the summer....

I loved my last one, but it has been a while since I've driven one.

[Geneve]

I've had several Defenders, and the latest models do address many of the refinement concerns without losing their essential character. They are very good.

And, yes, you can have aircon, but you can't have the ventilation flaps anymore.

[300bhp/ton]

Davel said:

Right, I last had a 90 County about 20 years ago.

Since then I've had a few Discoverys and more recently a couple of RRS.

Due to change cars now and was toying with a Defender again.

I'm planning to test drive one next week but have the newer ones improved much in recent years.

They have had more of a gentle evolution rather than anything revolutionary.

In essence most of the vehicle is identical to a 1985 model. Only real differences are the engine and gearbox and the use of 24 spline axles. Although the axle is still the same basic design.

The chassis and body parts, suspension and steering are all identical.

Air con has been available sine the late 90's with the TD5 engine.

The current 2.4 TDCI has a bonnet bulge and a new dash. The dash is good in someways, although I prefer the practicability and utilitarian feel of the original myself.

The front air vents (below the windscreen) are no longer present with the new dash.

That's about it really, apart from using thinner cheaper metal for the body work. The door frame is slightly redesigned as are the door rubbers, but its still the same door and would still fit a Series III.

Traction control, launched as an option with the TD5 and is still an option but revised. Well worth it if you plan to go off road as diff lockers are still not options from LR.

Davel said:

Is Air Cond an option yet?

Yes

Davel said:

Are they any faster (or less slow) than earlier ones?

Yes and no.

The current 2.4 TDCI has the same 122hp as the old TD5. Although it does have a slightly better torque curve due to the crap tune on the stock TD5.

The 6 speed box closes the ratio's up a bit. So it does feel more sprightly, but involves more gear changing.

The ECU limits the car to 82mph (iirc).

So faster than an old 2.5 turbo diesel. A bit quicker than a stock TDI, slower than a tuned TDI and on par or slightly better than a stock TD5.

You can remap them quite easily and see a hefty performance gain. But I personally believe a TD5 will match it bang for bang.

Davel said:

Do they corner any better?

I always thought they cornered quite well to be honest. Although you have to drive them right.

Tyres will have the biggest affect.

In short no. The suspension is by design 100% the same. I believe LR did revise the damper and spring rates a bit for the current Defender but it's nothing drastic.

However there are loads of tuning options in the aftermarket, with lowering springs, uprated dampers and anti-roll bars if you want.

Davel said:

I thought that I may get one of these and then get a toy for the summer....

I loved my last one, but it has been a while since I've driven one.

I have to admit my Defender is still the only vehicle I regret selling

As long as you understand and accept that the new Defender is still really an old one, or more accurately an updated Series III. Then you'll be fine.

Lots of reasons to get one.

The only other thing I'll add (and I know a few on here will get all butt hurt over it).

But seriously go and drive the new/current Jeep Wrangler.

They sell it in SWB and LWB variants.

It was a completely new redesign for 2005. And because of this trumps the old Defender on every point.

It drives better on the road, is as good (or arguably better off road). Nicer more comfy interior, better spec, better options list, faster, more powerful and more economical, safer and cheaper.

And if it's for "fun" the Jeep has a removable roof and doors and you can even fold the windscreen down.

It's really worth keeping your options open IMO



Two of my all time favourite vehicles

[Davel]

Thanks for the comments and advice.

I do like the Wrangler but the nearest dealer is in Stockport and the four door version doesn't look anything like the two door style, which I do like.

I think that a decent test drive in both is what's needed.

[300bhp/ton]

Davel said:

Thanks for the comments and advice.

I do like the Wrangler but the nearest dealer is in Stockport and the four door version doesn't look anything like the two door style, which I do like.

I think that a decent test drive in both is what's needed.

What ever you go for it's def worth driving both, even if it's to reaffirm that the Landy is the right one for you.

Only real downers with the Jeep are Jeep UK are pretty crap. Also spares and mods will be easier and cheaper to find for the Defender.

And Road Tax, if you get a commercial hard top or pick up Defender it's a lot cheaper a year. If you are looking at an XS then its the same cost as the Jeep in Road Tax terms.


But I have to say, I'm a die hard Land Rover fan. I've been around Landy's all my life. My Dad and my Uncle are both founding members of our local Land Rover club.

But I was deeply impressed with how well the Wrangler went. A stock Unlimited on AT's made some off road sections look easy that I know would have stopped my modded Disco if I'd have driven it the same way.

On a Jeep driving day I attended they had some instructors in, one was actually a Land Rover Experience instructor and even they admitted how good the Wrangler was.

That said I still entertain notions of owning a 90......

[cadoganpier]

I have just sold my 110XS TDCi. I loved it but in the two years and 20,000 miles I had it the following had to be replaced.
1 Clutch- out of balance apparently
2 Gearbox, syncro went on 2nd and third, the replacement box was starting to go on second when I sold it!
3 Transfer box, got very clunky
4 Rear diff
5 Turbo

The car was driven off road a bit but nothing at all extreme and never towed anything, I did also treat it kindly. All the above are well documented faults on the TDCi cars, I was just unlucky to get them all on the same vehicle. Having said that I only lost £6000 in two years which isnt to bad.

[budrover]

lets chuck this one into the pot.

I have just run a TD5 110 station wagon for last 14 months.

It didnt breakdown...nothing fell off...bought from a dealer...sold privately...and I sold for what I bought..so didnt cost a penny [except tax+insurance]

Another 110 is lined up on 13th March and will do same again....with the low depreciation rate..it is possible to have cheap motoring....plus joys of 4x4.

[Hooty]

Why is it that 300bhp tries to persuade everyone to buy a Jeep? Very odd. By the way, all Defenders come with locking diffs (centre) and some come with ETC as well.

The new ones have a better heater too which actually heats the cabin, not to mention forward facing rear seats in 110s which are child seat friendly. New engine is much quieter than the TD5.

[300bhp/ton]

Hooty said:

Why is it that 300bhp tries to persuade everyone to buy a Jeep? Very odd. By the way, all Defenders come with locking diffs (centre) and some come with ETC as well.

The new ones have a better heater too which actually heats the cabin, not to mention forward facing rear seats in 110s which are child seat friendly. New engine is much quieter than the TD5.

Because it's a direct alternative offering 100% the same thing unless you need it as a dedicated work horse.

The same way when someone looks at a Noble or Porsche someone else might say have a look at a TVR or an M model BMW.

And no Defenders don't come with locking diffs. Centre diff lock is not remotely similar locking axle
diffs.

[Hooty]

300bhp/ton said:

And no Defenders don't come with locking diffs. Centre diff lock is not remotely similar locking axle
diffs.

No one said that. All Defenders come with a lock centre differential and have done since they were launched.

The Jeep is not a 100% direct replacement and we had this argument in another thread. The Jeep is much more leisure oriented and has a very different feel and style. You pays your money and you takes your choice, I suppose. Each to their own. I'd feel a dick in a Jeep though.

[300bhp/ton]

Hooty said:

300bhp/ton said:

And no Defenders don't come with locking diffs. Centre diff lock is not remotely similar locking axle
diffs.

No one said that. All Defenders come with a lock centre differential and have done since they were launched.

The Jeep is not a 100% direct replacement and we had this argument in another thread. The Jeep is much more leisure oriented and has a very different feel and style. You pays your money and you takes your choice, I suppose. Each to their own. I'd feel a dick in a Jeep though.

But since many/most Defenders these days are bought and used as lifestyle vehicles it does essentially make them the same.

And it's ok, I daresay you could be a dick no matter what vehicle you drive


joking btw

[Hooty]

300bhp/ton said:

Hooty said:

300bhp/ton said:

And no Defenders don't come with locking diffs. Centre diff lock is not remotely similar locking axle
diffs.

No one said that. All Defenders come with a lock centre differential and have done since they were launched.

The Jeep is not a 100% direct replacement and we had this argument in another thread. The Jeep is much more leisure oriented and has a very different feel and style. You pays your money and you takes your choice, I suppose. Each to their own. I'd feel a dick in a Jeep though.

But since many/most Defenders these days are bought and used as lifestyle vehicles it does essentially make them the same.

And it's ok, I daresay you could be a dick no matter what vehicle you drive


joking btw

Well, you're the one recommending a Jeep so I guess we both must be!

[matt12023]

I bought my defender for what it was hence however amazing a jeep was i'd never consider it becuase its just not a defender, is there not a jeep section? is he on commision?

In reply to the OP i'd go for it, I've got a 99 110 defender, its quite high mileage but \I love it, but seriously considering changing it next year for a new or year old one. The main appeal is the rock solid values and obviously having a newer one. But they are so depreciation proof I wouldnt hesitate to go newer

[300bhp/ton]

Hooty said:

300bhp/ton said:

Hooty said:

300bhp/ton said:

And no Defenders don't come with locking diffs. Centre diff lock is not remotely similar locking axle
diffs.

No one said that. All Defenders come with a lock centre differential and have done since they were launched.

The Jeep is not a 100% direct replacement and we had this argument in another thread. The Jeep is much more leisure oriented and has a very different feel and style. You pays your money and you takes your choice, I suppose. Each to their own. I'd feel a dick in a Jeep though.

But since many/most Defenders these days are bought and used as lifestyle vehicles it does essentially make them the same.

And it's ok, I daresay you could be a dick no matter what vehicle you drive

joking btw

Well, you're the one recommending a Jeep so I guess we both must be!

Seriously don’t get me wrong.
 
I don’t know you, so have nothing against you
 
And as said already, I’m a huge Land Rover fan, always have been and always will be.
 
The main reason I say about the Jeep is because it is genuinely a very good vehicle. And having driven a couple, they certainly do outperform the Defender (even if we don’t like to admit it).
 
But they are often an over looked vehicle in the UK, so I say about them, just to allow others to make the consideration on if they’d be interested or not.
 
Or if you want, look at it another way. The current Jeep sets a new benchmark, maybe one Land Rover will try and match when/if they redesign and update the Defender. The Defender Series II is way overdue.
 
And if you want a Landy for a daily driver, some off roading maybe tow a small’ish trailer, then the Jeep will do all that.
 
The only real difference comes in the commercial “van” or hard top spec Defender and pickup or if you want a vehicle to build something like a fire tender or teleporter from.
 
But if it’s a county/XS or whatever the spec is called these days, then there is very little between them.
 

BTW I'm not asking you to like Jeeps, but simply dismissing them straight off just because they aren't a Land Rover isn't the only option. And besides others might be interested.

[ilaishley]

Can I just point out that the Land Rover or you're a dick argument (and dont try and dress it up any other way) is so childish that I struggle to come to terms with this being an adult forum. Now, my feet are firmly planted in the Land Rover camp, but if someone with knowledge of both Jeep & Land rover and, if I read correctly owns both, can post advice that you are free to take or otherwise, then gets mud thrown at him for merely suggesting an alternative then you are very narrow minded.

The more knowledge you have the more likely you are going to make an informed decision. Do you only eat at one restaurant? I bet you have tried many brands of TV over the years.

FYI I run a 57 TDV8 and an 03 Disco 2 and have had many other Land rovers. I have also had Jeeps on test drive and wasn't overly impressed, but I didn't stick my head in the sand and not try. Similarly if I was in the market for a Defender I wouldn't buy it without listening to advice of alternatives and trying them.

Ian

[cadoganpier]

Can I just point out no matter what falls off or breaks I still Love Landies, no car I can think off gives you that sense of going on an adventure ( or being able to go on one) that a Defender does. Prior to my unreliable TDCI I had a 110 300TDI from new for 14 years and it was great and I am sure I will get another, it just wont be an early TDCi as I got the feeling LR maybe rushed the model out and let their customers do some of the testing that should have been done before they where launched.

[300bhp/ton]

cadoganpier said:

Can I just point out no matter what falls off or breaks I still Love Landies, no car I can think off gives you that sense of going on an adventure ( or being able to go on one) that a Defender does. Prior to my unreliable TDCI I had a 110 300TDI from new for 14 years and it was great and I am sure I will get another, it just wont be an early TDCi as I got the feeling LR maybe rushed the model out and let their customers do some of the testing that should have been done before they where launched.

I think the biggest shame was not that it was rushed, after all these “major” updates did take over 20 years to materialise.
 
It was more the penny pinching not wanting to develop the product attitude at Land Rover that made a mockery of it.
 
I know of several people with “new” TDCI Defender’s, some have been trouble free while others have been nightmares. Gearbox failures seem common, but then this same gearbox that suffers fairly regular failures in the Transit van that LR nicked it from. But sadly despite knowing of fewer new Defenders I too seem to hear more grumblings about them than older ones.
 
What Land Rover should have done was fitted the 2.7 TDV6 and 6 speed boxes from the D3. They could even have done an entry level 3.5 V8 using the smaller displacement Jaguar AJV8 engine.
 
These engine’s would have given the Defender a new lease of life and made it competitive against rivals, who all use bigger more powerful engines.
 
But I believe the main reason they didn’t do this was the driveline, LR new the axles weren’t up to coping with the power.
 
And I think there is still a hint that they didn’t want the Defender outperforming the Discovery. After all this is why the 200Tdi and TD5 engines were de-tuned in the Defender models compared to the Disco’s.
 
Land Rover’s excuse that the V6 was too big for the Defender engine bay seems a little tentative to me, or in other plain old fashioned bullst!
 
If the Rover V8 and even aftermarket transplants of GM 6.2 litre diesel V8’s can fit, then the compact and lightweight TDV6 would. I know there is someone building a TDV8 D110 that I’ve seen on the web, so the engine bay is more than big enough.
 
 
Land Rover were also fools not to raid the Fords part bin when they had chance, hydro formed chassis rails, strong axles, diff lockers, strong electronic switch-on-the-fly transfer boxes and so on.
 
 
So it’s not a case of the Defender not being any good, but more the case of it could, or should have been so much better than it is.

[cadoganpier]

Well put 300. I am good pals with a senior mechanic at Lancaster and he is always telling me about the disasters they are having with the TDCI cars. If I where going to get another I think I would go for a late TD5. It just seems that as they know the Defender is going to be replaced soon they kind of cobbled it together, then they bought some of the components from the lowest bidder ( diffs etc). The shame is the more money that goes into repairing these cars under warranty the less goes into improving the next generation of LR products, I shudder to think they would have lost on my car through repairs.