Buying a bar in Thailand
Discussion
So, my brother, 30, has just left his job to pursue a dream (kind of). He wants to move to Thailand and buy a bar, and somewhere to live. I'm all for it. He's still relatively young, with no real ties, girlfriend or mortgage here, and has a good chunk of cash ready.
Question is, how does he actually go about it? Has anyone on PH done it and would they be willing to share some advice? What are the pitfalls to watch for and what kind of legal representation is needed? Can foreigners actually own property there? What hidden taxes are there, and how much of his savings should he spend on the outright purchase?
Any experiences shared - good and bad, will be gratefuly received.
Cheers.
Mods - feel free to move this to hols/business/employment or wherever it fits best
Question is, how does he actually go about it? Has anyone on PH done it and would they be willing to share some advice? What are the pitfalls to watch for and what kind of legal representation is needed? Can foreigners actually own property there? What hidden taxes are there, and how much of his savings should he spend on the outright purchase?
Any experiences shared - good and bad, will be gratefuly received.
Cheers.
Mods - feel free to move this to hols/business/employment or wherever it fits best
rsv gone! said:
He will have to own it through a company so he will need a thai business partner he can trust - they will have the controlling share.
Thought there was something like that. What about his villa - will he actualy own his home out there, or is that subject to similar restrictions?
Well, the local mafia anyway. Many Thais don't like to see foreigners prosper.
I wouldn't invest in a bar there. Thailand is a great place to visit on a western wage but it will be a lot less fun on local wages. Tell your brother to try getting by on a few hundred Baht a day. Take the non-ac buses instead of taxis, for example.
I wouldn't invest in a bar there. Thailand is a great place to visit on a western wage but it will be a lot less fun on local wages. Tell your brother to try getting by on a few hundred Baht a day. Take the non-ac buses instead of taxis, for example.
Interesting topic, I often get similar whims but more like Vietnam, stayed in a great place a couple of years ago and kept in e-mail contact with someone about a plot of land 
It remains my silly pipe dream to take a year's career break from work and to see if I could make it work, then come back if all goes Pete Tong.
The point about "Western" vs "Local" wages is very valid though. Thinking about the general cost of beer, even if there is a significant markup, you'd have to sell an awful lot for an appreciable profit.
I didn't realise there was organised crime on a local level in Thailand- I suppose it's under the radar when you are on holiday there!
It remains my silly pipe dream to take a year's career break from work and to see if I could make it work, then come back if all goes Pete Tong.The point about "Western" vs "Local" wages is very valid though. Thinking about the general cost of beer, even if there is a significant markup, you'd have to sell an awful lot for an appreciable profit.
I didn't realise there was organised crime on a local level in Thailand- I suppose it's under the radar when you are on holiday there!
I don't think he is expecting to go there and make his fortune. Probably spend 25% of his savings on a buisiness outright, the same on a villa, and save half 'just in case'. He lives a pretty simple life over here, so as long as the bar was keeping him in beer tokens, I think he'd be happy.
The organised crime element exists pretty much everywhere though, and there seems to be no shortage of ex-pats running stuff there and elsewhere. Being scared of some local 'gangsters' is a pretty lame excuse not to do it IMHO.
But I'll pass this all on to him.
The organised crime element exists pretty much everywhere though, and there seems to be no shortage of ex-pats running stuff there and elsewhere. Being scared of some local 'gangsters' is a pretty lame excuse not to do it IMHO.
But I'll pass this all on to him.
Recently moved to Chiang Mai in Thailand three months ago so my knowledge is limited but www.thaivisa.com is a good shout. Just be wary of the bitter knackers who live on there. Plenty of good advice though.
my brother brought a new holiday villa out there about 4 years with in a big complex full of europeans, he travels out there for hols about 3-4 times a year
he's now in the middle of converting it into a international day nursery for upto x40 toddlers, employing a teacher, x3 assistants, a cook and a cleaner
seems there is a great demand in his area and pretty straight forward to setup
his business partners have been making fortunes in rubber plantations, selling the produce to China, rubber demand has shot up in recent years
he's now in the middle of converting it into a international day nursery for upto x40 toddlers, employing a teacher, x3 assistants, a cook and a cleaner
seems there is a great demand in his area and pretty straight forward to setup
his business partners have been making fortunes in rubber plantations, selling the produce to China, rubber demand has shot up in recent years
Edited by Viper on Saturday 16th June 11:17
LimaDelta said:
The organised crime element exists pretty much everywhere though, and there seems to be no shortage of ex-pats running stuff there and elsewhere. Being scared of some local 'gangsters' is a pretty lame excuse not to do it IMHO. .
The corruption goes all the way through though.Imagine setting up a business in the UK, now imagine having to bribe everyone along the way. Now bribe the police, now give that bloke free drinks, and his family. The bloke who puts adverts up, the bloke who runs the flyering.
I know of a water park that was set up with equipment that was safe enough to sell in Europe. No, not good enough for Thailand, get shut of the lot and buy some Chinese (no offense) s
te or we close you down. Buy the substandard equipment, get shut down anyway.I live in Bangkok and am part owner of a business here. Not a bar, but I know a few people who run or have run bars.
Firstly the legal aspects - you can't buy land here as a foreigner, so the normal way to do this is either buy it in a Thai wife's name, which is obviously a big risk if things go sour, or to buy it in a company name. Thai companies cannot be more than 49% foreign owned. There are lawyers who will nominate trustees who have nothing to do with the business, but that's a bit convoluted and the subject of occasional crackdowns by authorities. The best option in my view would just be to negotiate a reasonable 30 year lease and see that for what it is - a lease.
For housing, you can own a condo outright here, but not a free hold on any land. You can get a 30 year or just rent. I just rent because it's cheap and convenient.
You can't work here without a work permit. It's quite hard to get a work permit for running a bar, because in theory a Thai person could do the same work. The rule of thumb is that you need to employ 4 Thais to be eligible for a work permit and receive a salary of ~50,000 THB a month, depending on what you do.
Another way around this is to be here on a Non 0 visa, which allows you to own a portion of a business but not actually work. This is usually pretty safe if you have Thai staff you trust (a big if!) and if you are not in the thick of Pattaya, and don't make enemies who will report you to the authorities every time you pass someone a beer from the fridge.
Some more practical advice:
Thailand is full of "farang" bars, especially in Pattaya, Samui and Phuket, and the vast majority of them don't work out. In my experience the ones that do are either set up very legitimately with big capital, a full time owner/manager with a work permit and usually a Thai business partner. Second type is guys who have been here for donkeys years, speak the language and have a Thai family by marriage who are honest, don't try and rip him off and put in some work themselves as well. More often than not these work in more out of the way places where there is a critical mass of foreigners needing a meeting place/watering hole but not swamped with people opening bars.
Thailand is corrupt, as others have noted, and realistically you'll probably end up paying someone some beer money somewhere, but it needn't bet he full on horror story you read about on Thai Visa and elsewhere. My friend who ran an out of the way bar in a town up country never paid bribes or gave out free drinks to the police. He spoke decent Thai and firmly yet politely told them to pay like everyone else. Once this was established they didn't bother him much, came in for the occasional beer and otherwise left him alone.
I don't like to sound like the proto-typical jaded farang moaning about the dishonesty and greed of the Thai people, but there certainly is an element who will over charged, under deliver and otherwise try to rip people off at every turn, and they tend to congregate around the areas where foreigners open bars.
Turning up with a pocket full of cash to invest in a bar honestly sounds like a recipe for disaster if he doesn't have any connections here, Thai language ability, or experience in running a bar. However I'm sure it has been done.
Finally, is that really what he wants to do? Said friend just sold his bar because he found that although it was making a profit it was literally eating up all his time, it was turning him into an alcoholic and he could save the equivalent of a years profit if he went home and did 3 months work, then come back and spend 3 months relaxing with his family, playing around with his mates and generally having fun. Which is really the reason he moved here in the first place.
My advice would be come and do a few months teaching English first, learn the language, learn a bit about the people and then figure out what you want to do next, and whether Thailand is a part of that.
However if he's already minted, has a guaranteed income from abroad and wants to live here and run a bar just for the fun of it, and doesn't mind actually tipping money into it for a few years until he finds his feet then fair enough.
Good luck to him though, and let me know when/where the opening party is!
Firstly the legal aspects - you can't buy land here as a foreigner, so the normal way to do this is either buy it in a Thai wife's name, which is obviously a big risk if things go sour, or to buy it in a company name. Thai companies cannot be more than 49% foreign owned. There are lawyers who will nominate trustees who have nothing to do with the business, but that's a bit convoluted and the subject of occasional crackdowns by authorities. The best option in my view would just be to negotiate a reasonable 30 year lease and see that for what it is - a lease.
For housing, you can own a condo outright here, but not a free hold on any land. You can get a 30 year or just rent. I just rent because it's cheap and convenient.
You can't work here without a work permit. It's quite hard to get a work permit for running a bar, because in theory a Thai person could do the same work. The rule of thumb is that you need to employ 4 Thais to be eligible for a work permit and receive a salary of ~50,000 THB a month, depending on what you do.
Another way around this is to be here on a Non 0 visa, which allows you to own a portion of a business but not actually work. This is usually pretty safe if you have Thai staff you trust (a big if!) and if you are not in the thick of Pattaya, and don't make enemies who will report you to the authorities every time you pass someone a beer from the fridge.
Some more practical advice:
Thailand is full of "farang" bars, especially in Pattaya, Samui and Phuket, and the vast majority of them don't work out. In my experience the ones that do are either set up very legitimately with big capital, a full time owner/manager with a work permit and usually a Thai business partner. Second type is guys who have been here for donkeys years, speak the language and have a Thai family by marriage who are honest, don't try and rip him off and put in some work themselves as well. More often than not these work in more out of the way places where there is a critical mass of foreigners needing a meeting place/watering hole but not swamped with people opening bars.
Thailand is corrupt, as others have noted, and realistically you'll probably end up paying someone some beer money somewhere, but it needn't bet he full on horror story you read about on Thai Visa and elsewhere. My friend who ran an out of the way bar in a town up country never paid bribes or gave out free drinks to the police. He spoke decent Thai and firmly yet politely told them to pay like everyone else. Once this was established they didn't bother him much, came in for the occasional beer and otherwise left him alone.
I don't like to sound like the proto-typical jaded farang moaning about the dishonesty and greed of the Thai people, but there certainly is an element who will over charged, under deliver and otherwise try to rip people off at every turn, and they tend to congregate around the areas where foreigners open bars.
Turning up with a pocket full of cash to invest in a bar honestly sounds like a recipe for disaster if he doesn't have any connections here, Thai language ability, or experience in running a bar. However I'm sure it has been done.
Finally, is that really what he wants to do? Said friend just sold his bar because he found that although it was making a profit it was literally eating up all his time, it was turning him into an alcoholic and he could save the equivalent of a years profit if he went home and did 3 months work, then come back and spend 3 months relaxing with his family, playing around with his mates and generally having fun. Which is really the reason he moved here in the first place.
My advice would be come and do a few months teaching English first, learn the language, learn a bit about the people and then figure out what you want to do next, and whether Thailand is a part of that.
However if he's already minted, has a guaranteed income from abroad and wants to live here and run a bar just for the fun of it, and doesn't mind actually tipping money into it for a few years until he finds his feet then fair enough.
Good luck to him though, and let me know when/where the opening party is!
AJS- said:
I live in Bangkok and am part owner of a business here. Not a bar, but I know a few people who run or have run bars.
Firstly the legal aspects - you can't buy land here as a foreigner, so the normal way to do this is either buy it in a Thai wife's name, which is obviously a big risk if things go sour, or to buy it in a company name. Thai companies cannot be more than 49% foreign owned. There are lawyers who will nominate trustees who have nothing to do with the business, but that's a bit convoluted and the subject of occasional crackdowns by authorities. The best option in my view would just be to negotiate a reasonable 30 year lease and see that for what it is - a lease.
For housing, you can own a condo outright here, but not a free hold on any land. You can get a 30 year or just rent. I just rent because it's cheap and convenient.
You can't work here without a work permit. It's quite hard to get a work permit for running a bar, because in theory a Thai person could do the same work. The rule of thumb is that you need to employ 4 Thais to be eligible for a work permit and receive a salary of ~50,000 THB a month, depending on what you do.
Another way around this is to be here on a Non 0 visa, which allows you to own a portion of a business but not actually work. This is usually pretty safe if you have Thai staff you trust (a big if!) and if you are not in the thick of Pattaya, and don't make enemies who will report you to the authorities every time you pass someone a beer from the fridge.
Some more practical advice:
Thailand is full of "farang" bars, especially in Pattaya, Samui and Phuket, and the vast majority of them don't work out. In my experience the ones that do are either set up very legitimately with big capital, a full time owner/manager with a work permit and usually a Thai business partner. Second type is guys who have been here for donkeys years, speak the language and have a Thai family by marriage who are honest, don't try and rip him off and put in some work themselves as well. More often than not these work in more out of the way places where there is a critical mass of foreigners needing a meeting place/watering hole but not swamped with people opening bars.
Thailand is corrupt, as others have noted, and realistically you'll probably end up paying someone some beer money somewhere, but it needn't bet he full on horror story you read about on Thai Visa and elsewhere. My friend who ran an out of the way bar in a town up country never paid bribes or gave out free drinks to the police. He spoke decent Thai and firmly yet politely told them to pay like everyone else. Once this was established they didn't bother him much, came in for the occasional beer and otherwise left him alone.
I don't like to sound like the proto-typical jaded farang moaning about the dishonesty and greed of the Thai people, but there certainly is an element who will over charged, under deliver and otherwise try to rip people off at every turn, and they tend to congregate around the areas where foreigners open bars.
Turning up with a pocket full of cash to invest in a bar honestly sounds like a recipe for disaster if he doesn't have any connections here, Thai language ability, or experience in running a bar. However I'm sure it has been done.
Finally, is that really what he wants to do? Said friend just sold his bar because he found that although it was making a profit it was literally eating up all his time, it was turning him into an alcoholic and he could save the equivalent of a years profit if he went home and did 3 months work, then come back and spend 3 months relaxing with his family, playing around with his mates and generally having fun. Which is really the reason he moved here in the first place.
My advice would be come and do a few months teaching English first, learn the language, learn a bit about the people and then figure out what you want to do next, and whether Thailand is a part of that.
However if he's already minted, has a guaranteed income from abroad and wants to live here and run a bar just for the fun of it, and doesn't mind actually tipping money into it for a few years until he finds his feet then fair enough.
Good luck to him though, and let me know when/where the opening party is!
Thanks for that AJS, I'll pass it on. Firstly the legal aspects - you can't buy land here as a foreigner, so the normal way to do this is either buy it in a Thai wife's name, which is obviously a big risk if things go sour, or to buy it in a company name. Thai companies cannot be more than 49% foreign owned. There are lawyers who will nominate trustees who have nothing to do with the business, but that's a bit convoluted and the subject of occasional crackdowns by authorities. The best option in my view would just be to negotiate a reasonable 30 year lease and see that for what it is - a lease.
For housing, you can own a condo outright here, but not a free hold on any land. You can get a 30 year or just rent. I just rent because it's cheap and convenient.
You can't work here without a work permit. It's quite hard to get a work permit for running a bar, because in theory a Thai person could do the same work. The rule of thumb is that you need to employ 4 Thais to be eligible for a work permit and receive a salary of ~50,000 THB a month, depending on what you do.
Another way around this is to be here on a Non 0 visa, which allows you to own a portion of a business but not actually work. This is usually pretty safe if you have Thai staff you trust (a big if!) and if you are not in the thick of Pattaya, and don't make enemies who will report you to the authorities every time you pass someone a beer from the fridge.
Some more practical advice:
Thailand is full of "farang" bars, especially in Pattaya, Samui and Phuket, and the vast majority of them don't work out. In my experience the ones that do are either set up very legitimately with big capital, a full time owner/manager with a work permit and usually a Thai business partner. Second type is guys who have been here for donkeys years, speak the language and have a Thai family by marriage who are honest, don't try and rip him off and put in some work themselves as well. More often than not these work in more out of the way places where there is a critical mass of foreigners needing a meeting place/watering hole but not swamped with people opening bars.
Thailand is corrupt, as others have noted, and realistically you'll probably end up paying someone some beer money somewhere, but it needn't bet he full on horror story you read about on Thai Visa and elsewhere. My friend who ran an out of the way bar in a town up country never paid bribes or gave out free drinks to the police. He spoke decent Thai and firmly yet politely told them to pay like everyone else. Once this was established they didn't bother him much, came in for the occasional beer and otherwise left him alone.
I don't like to sound like the proto-typical jaded farang moaning about the dishonesty and greed of the Thai people, but there certainly is an element who will over charged, under deliver and otherwise try to rip people off at every turn, and they tend to congregate around the areas where foreigners open bars.
Turning up with a pocket full of cash to invest in a bar honestly sounds like a recipe for disaster if he doesn't have any connections here, Thai language ability, or experience in running a bar. However I'm sure it has been done.
Finally, is that really what he wants to do? Said friend just sold his bar because he found that although it was making a profit it was literally eating up all his time, it was turning him into an alcoholic and he could save the equivalent of a years profit if he went home and did 3 months work, then come back and spend 3 months relaxing with his family, playing around with his mates and generally having fun. Which is really the reason he moved here in the first place.
My advice would be come and do a few months teaching English first, learn the language, learn a bit about the people and then figure out what you want to do next, and whether Thailand is a part of that.
However if he's already minted, has a guaranteed income from abroad and wants to live here and run a bar just for the fun of it, and doesn't mind actually tipping money into it for a few years until he finds his feet then fair enough.
Good luck to him though, and let me know when/where the opening party is!
really interesting to read just how difficult it is for foreigners to invest & succeed in places like Thailand. I always wondered how people do it/go about doing it.
The rules are really in favour of the locals which I think is absolutely right - shame it's nothing like that in the UK!
The rules are really in favour of the locals which I think is absolutely right - shame it's nothing like that in the UK!
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