How NOT to Employ Someone

[zuby84]

Hey there,

Hoping someone with a bit of experience can give me a bit of advice. I hired an employee in December 2013 on a fulltime basis to look after some of my properties for me. Getting a contract drawn up has been on my "to do" list ever since; however I've not done it yet. I gave her an email at the start of the job detailing her responsibilities/salary/annual leave etc... but I did not stupidly mention sick pay. Today is bang on (to the day) 6 month mark of her employment!

Well fast forward 6 months; she's not been progressing as well as I would have hoped. I've had a few meetings with her (informally) talking about ways she could improve her work and the silly mistakes she had been making (for instance dating contracts/leases wrongly etc...) She's not had any supervision and she just does what/when as she pleases and is terribly inefficient. I also suspected that she took a deposit off someone, but didn't tell me about it (and pocketed the difference) although I have no hard proof of this. Well, today she has just said that her GP has signed her of for 1 month with "anxiety and stress." I'm a GP myself and I realise that it doesn't take much to be signed off with that in a lot of cases.

Where do I stand - this is our proper first full time hire and I have no idea about employment law (it's a minefield I'm told.) Am I right in saying; I just need to give her the minimum statutory sick pay (about £90 a week)? What happens if there is no written contract?

[smileymikey]

I'm shocked that you doubt the integrity of another colleague!!

You haven't given the woman a clear contract, you haven't supervised her and now when she has been working for you for six months she has the bare faced cheek to be poorly. You not only criticise your fellow GP's with no evidence against there good name. You then go on to try and work out the bare minimum you can screw this woman over for......I so hope the strong cock of the employment tribunal bends you over and sticks it right up your arse

[Countdown]

Yes, it's SSP only which you can recover from any tax/NI you are handing over to HMRC.

Secondly I'm pretty sure you can get rid of her for any reason (apart from certain protected ones). See linky below

http://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/dismiss...

I'd recommend legal advice before going down that road.

[Countdown]

smileymikey said:

I'm shocked that you doubt the integrity of another colleague!!

You haven't given the woman a clear contract, you haven't supervised her and now when she has been working for you for six months she has the bare faced cheek to be poorly. You not only criticise your fellow GP's with no evidence against there good name. You then go on to try and work out the bare minimum you can screw this woman over for......I so hope the strong cock of the employment tribunal bends you over and sticks it right up your arse

You'd be surprised at how many small businesses operate in this way. Having your own business doesn't instantly endow you with all the knowledge you need about HR, Finance, H&S etc etc. It's a learning curve.

[smileymikey]

Countdown said:

smileymikey said:

I'm shocked that you doubt the integrity of another colleague!!

You haven't given the woman a clear contract, you haven't supervised her and now when she has been working for you for six months she has the bare faced cheek to be poorly. You not only criticise your fellow GP's with no evidence against there good name. You then go on to try and work out the bare minimum you can screw this woman over for......I so hope the strong cock of the employment tribunal bends you over and sticks it right up your arse

You'd be surprised at how many small businesses operate in this way. Having your own business doesn't instantly endow you with all the knowledge you need about HR, Finance, H&S etc etc. It's a learning curve.

As a GP I would expect the OP to have a modicum of experience in employing staff!. As a professional I would expect the OP to have used the six months gap between employing the person in question and the issue that has now arisen. To protect both himself and the employee. If his/her property portfolio is big enough to justify an employee it is big enough to justify making sure all parties are looked after properly.

Lets then go onto the claim that the employee has stolen from the OP....without any proof..... I would suggest (respectfully) that the slack arsed arrogant tone of the post, is a fair reflection of a slack arsed arrogant person as an employer

[MEC]

Countdown said:

Yes, it's SSP only which you can recover from any tax/NI you are handing over to HMRC.

Not since April this year I'm afraid, it is only SSP (£87 a week) but you have to fund it, no deductions from PAYE any more

[Countdown]

smileymikey said:

As a GP I would expect the OP to have a modicum of experience in employing staff!. As a professional I would expect the OP to have used the six months gap between employing the person in question and the issue that has now arisen. To protect both himself and the employee. If his/her property portfolio is big enough to justify an employee it is big enough to justify making sure all parties are looked after properly.
r

Nope. GPs rarely get involved in employing staff. Either the NHS will do it or the practice manager will do it. Tbh it's FAR more cost effective for a GP to be "doctoring" rather than swotting up on HR law.

Hindsight is always 20/20. This doesn't appear to be a massive issue and I think a discussion with a HR expert should be able to fix things.

You mentioned employment tribunal in your earlier post. What grounds do you think the employee has for going to ET?

[Countdown]

MEC said:

Not since April this year I'm afraid, it is only SSP (£87 a week) but you have to fund it, no deductions from PAYE any more

D'oh!!! Thanks for that

[Pot Bellied Fool]

So you think she's swinging the lead? But of course she may not be. And to be fair to her, she's had no on-job-training or guidance.

Sounds a bit of a mess but not (yet) an absolute nightmare. You need to get proper paperwork & systems in place & then manage her (either to improve or out the door but be fair, she could turn out to be a gem that just needs some direction).

Have a word with John at www.strawberryhr.com - nice guy, lots of real world experience of getting SMEs to toe the HR line & very much a realist. Mate of mine but I still wouldn't use anyone else for staffing stuff.

It sounds like you're a bit frustrated and reaching out to the possibility of her being light fingered. Try & prove that one way or the other or it'll niggle away at you. You need employees you can trust implicitly but part of the contract is your support & guidance, not just paying the payroll.

Good Luck getting it all sorted.

[NathanJones]

http://www.startupdonut.co.uk/startup/employees/re...

Have recently terminated a contract, just told employee that their ability was not what they had indicated, they had been with the Company 7 months.

[smileymikey]

In fairness my comments were guided a little by the OP...contracts been on my "to do list" and the post ending in...what if there is no contract.....it doesn't send out a very professional message. That and a very vague and unsubstantiated accusation of dishonesty. Employment law is only an uneven playing field, if your trying to play a crooked game. Otherwise it protects all parties

[zuby84]

I think I've been more than fair to her to be honest; many others would have "sacked" her a long time ago, but I keep on expecting/hoping her to turn the corner so I have persisted with her and given her many chances and support on the things she's having difficulty with. She's had a lot of paid compassionate leave and time off for appointments etc... (which wasn't in the "email contract") She works about 35 hours a week despite being paid for 40 hours, has me at the other end of the line for support and has been left up to it to largely get on with things in her own time which her experience suggested she could do (but doesn't seem able to.) I think I might even have been a bit too soft on her and she's started taking liberties that way! I might not have made a written contract; but that does not make me an "evil/sneaky employer."

As some have said; I don't deal with HR at my practice and this is something I have purposefully tried to avoid through my career, but I guess it caught up with me this time! I will definitely look at some of the links you've posted for outsourcing HR.

All I wanted to know is what my potential liability to her would be if she starts abusing the fact that we have no formal contract in place. I would still like to keep her on side and have one more go with her trying to find her feet when she gets back before looking for a replacement, but if her performance does not improve then I will need to get rid of her.

And I have as much proof as I need that she attempted to take a deposit without telling me:

Me: Has Flat X been rented yet?
Her: Yes, I rented that out 6 weeks ago
Me: Ok, how much deposit did you take?
Her: None
Me: Why not?
Her: Oh, yes I did, I forgot to say £450
Me: Where's the money for that? Did you put it in the Deposit Scheme?
Her: I thought I gave the money to you along with ...... (no she didn't)

I checked the lease of Flat X on our dropbox account - there was no electronic copy of the lease for it. Next time I was at the office; I saw the original lease for Flat X lying on her desk and a deposit for £400 (note she had told me that she had taken a £450 deposit initially) had been written by pen on the lease which further confirmed my suspicion that she had amended this paper lease by hand to show a deposit. I told her (again) that all leases MUST have all the boxes filled out on the computer and there must be no pen writing on the leases.

Either grossly incompetent - forgetting how much deposit she had taken, forgetting to enter it on the lease/rent system and then lying to me about it OR trying to pull a fast one. Goes on the sick the following week. I didn't accuse her of anything; but I think she realised she had been rumbled.

[h0b0]

Is it possible she didn't take the deposit and panicked? She may be covering the cost herself and that's causing the stress. Ask your tenants how much they paid deposit.

[zuby84]

h0b0 said:

Is it possible she didn't take the deposit and panicked? She may be covering the cost herself and that's causing the stress. Ask your tenants how much they paid deposit.

Yes, like I mentioned - possible, but unlikely IMO (we don't always take deposits and if she hadn't taken one it wouldn't have been that strange). Overall, this isn't the main reason that I'm concerned about her performance and one of the reasons I've not contacted the tenant (as whatever happened I was going to let it slide); it's just another small thing where I have lost confidence in her.

The trouble is that I am quite busy working myself so I don't have time to be at the office for any extended periods (I sometimes pop in at lunch) and therefore I don't really know what she gets up to when I'm not there. She's either inefficient or work-shy (or a mixture of both.) I asked her to keep a simple work diary (in the hope she is inefficient) we could go through what she was spending her time on to see where improvements could be made - she done this for 1 week then stopped. I have been asking her to do a really simple task for 4 months (which she knows how to do) - she does a little bit then stops. A few weeks later I ask how it's progressing and she has forgotten about it and re-starts it again, does it for a bit and then stops again etc... In addition, she's making multiple careless errors (incomplete/wrong data entry, dating leases with the wrong years etc...) and I am more than certain that in most other organisations she would be long gone.

Basically, she might be good if she has me in the office telling her what to do and I double check all of her work (ie making sure she's dated leases correctly) - but that kind of defeats the purpose in me employing her! It's all just a bit of a mess, but I have tried to be patient with her and support her. No doubt her performance has been even worse over the last few weeks (probably stress related) but it's not a terribly hard/stressfull job to do! I was going to have a meeting with her today and give her one last opportunity to improve her performance, but I guess it will have to wait until/if she comes back. This is the reason I do not want to give her full sick pay; I could see her being off for months for this when the likelihood is that I will need to seek a replacement sooner or later anyway (based on historical performance.) However, similarly I don't want to "rock the boat" with regards to making her stress worse whilst she's "recovering." I was thinking 2 weeks full pay and then SSP after that.

Edited by zuby84 on Tuesday 3rd June 07:59

[NDA]

Get rid of her.

She hasn't worked for you for a period that would cause you any legal issues - so you can get shot.

[anonymous-user]

zuby84 said:

Yes, like I mentioned - possible, but unlikely IMO (we don't always take deposits and if she hadn't taken one it wouldn't have been that strange). Overall, this isn't the main reason that I'm concerned about her performance and one of the reasons I've not contacted the tenant (as whatever happened I was going to let it slide); it's just another small thing where I have lost confidence in her.

So you don't do contracts or deposits sometimes ?

What sort of half arsed/dodgy prop co do you run and what type of tenants do you get in?
Do HMRC need to do a run past ? Or will your ass go tight at the thought?

zuby84 said:

In addition, she's making multiple careless errors (incomplete/wrong data entry, dating leases with the wrong years etc...) and I am more than certain that in most other organisations she would be gone

Yup I have that problem with solicitors and associates at one of the top 10 legal firms in the uk and they probably earn more per hr than your colleague does per day

[zcacogp]

NDA said:

She hasn't worked for you for a period that would cause you any legal issues - so you can get shot.

If this is true (that she hasn't worked for you for long enough to cause you legal issues) then I would indeed get rid of her, and quickly.


Oli.

[zuby84]

speedyguy said:

So you don't do contracts or deposits sometimes ?

What sort of half arsed/dodgy prop co do you run and what type of tenants do you get in?
Do HMRC need to do a run past ? Or will your ass go tight at the thought?

There's always one smart alec isn't there The fact that we don't always take deposits doesn't equate to "running a half arsed/dodgy property company" and being scared of HMRC. There's ALWAYS leases in place. There are multiple reasons for not taking deposits at times especially with the tenant deposit schemes etc.. (often more hassle than it's worth.) Have things been a bit disorganised since I hired her - yes - I was expecting a little bit of a rocky transition phase, but it's gone on for too long. Are we still fulfilling our legal and moral duties to tenants, local authorities and Government - yes. It's just a messy internal issue, due to the fact that she has not been able to cope with the responsibility due to her performance.

speedyguy said:

zuby84 said:

In addition, she's making multiple careless errors (incomplete/wrong data entry, dating leases with the wrong years etc...) and I am more than certain that in most other organisations she would be gone

Yup I have that problem with solicitors and associates at one of the top 10 legal firms in the uk and they probably earn more per hr than your colleague does per day

I agree, everyone makes careless errors at times, but I'm sure you can appreciate it that there does come a point where it becomes "too many" which results in a loss of confidence in her carrying out the work properly. Should I hire someone else just to double check the work she is doing - that's essentially what I'm going to have to do when she comes back (or do it myself.) With all due respect; you've not worked with her and you only have a tiny snapshot of the situation. I'm better placed than you to decide how she's performing.

Edited by zuby84 on Tuesday 3rd June 09:34

[Engineer1]

I think this isn't just how not to employ someone but also someone not to work for.

[boobles]

In no way am I trying to tell the OP what he can/can't do surely being a GP must take up 100% of his time? Why on earth would you want another business on the side as we are all led to believe that being a GP takes up all of your time?