Dismissing someone who is on long term sick
Discussion
I have an employee on my books, he's been with me from the start (5 years) but has now become to ill to work (Angina, Thyroid etc). He has been off work for 3 months and I have been paying him statutory sick pay. Its got to the point now where enough really is enough as I think we all know he's finished in terms of work as he's 55 or so and his work is very labour intensive.
I have read pages and pages of advice online and I cannot find a clear answer of how I can dismiss this person fairly with no come backs? I believe I am within my rights to dismiss him but it states that I have to give him reasonable time in the hope that he can recover, it doesn't actually say how long etc though.
Do I have to pay him anything if I sack him? This seems like an absolute minefield and I'd appreciate any advice including the formal sequence for dismissal
I have read pages and pages of advice online and I cannot find a clear answer of how I can dismiss this person fairly with no come backs? I believe I am within my rights to dismiss him but it states that I have to give him reasonable time in the hope that he can recover, it doesn't actually say how long etc though.
Do I have to pay him anything if I sack him? This seems like an absolute minefield and I'd appreciate any advice including the formal sequence for dismissal
ACAS are very good at providing information in such instances....
acas website said:
What options does an employer have if an employee is on long term sick absence?
Where an employee is on long term sickness absence, the employer should investigate the nature of the employee's sickness so that they have information about how long the absence is likely to last, and to consider whether there are any workplace adjustments that might help the employee return to work. They could ask the employee for consent to obtain a medical report from their GP or other medical professionals, or make a referral to an occupational health adviser.
The employer should maintain a reasonable level of contact with the employee during their absence. If the employee has been receiving Statutory Sick Pay (SSP), then after 28 weeks this will expire and the employer should provide the employee with form SSP1. The employee will continue to accrue holidays while they are on sick leave, which will generally be rolled over until the employee returns to work or leaves employment, unless they request and are granted permission to use them before the leave year expires.
If the medical reports indicate that there is no prospect of the employee returning to work in the foreseeable future, and there are no adjustments that the employer can make to help the employee's return, the employer could consider ending the employee's employment. Capability is one of the potentially fair reasons for dismissal; the employer would need to show that they have also carried out a fair procedure and that dismissal is the last resort.
Of course though, always satisfy yourself and seek your own advice before committing.Where an employee is on long term sickness absence, the employer should investigate the nature of the employee's sickness so that they have information about how long the absence is likely to last, and to consider whether there are any workplace adjustments that might help the employee return to work. They could ask the employee for consent to obtain a medical report from their GP or other medical professionals, or make a referral to an occupational health adviser.
The employer should maintain a reasonable level of contact with the employee during their absence. If the employee has been receiving Statutory Sick Pay (SSP), then after 28 weeks this will expire and the employer should provide the employee with form SSP1. The employee will continue to accrue holidays while they are on sick leave, which will generally be rolled over until the employee returns to work or leaves employment, unless they request and are granted permission to use them before the leave year expires.
If the medical reports indicate that there is no prospect of the employee returning to work in the foreseeable future, and there are no adjustments that the employer can make to help the employee's return, the employer could consider ending the employee's employment. Capability is one of the potentially fair reasons for dismissal; the employer would need to show that they have also carried out a fair procedure and that dismissal is the last resort.
Dr Interceptor said:
ACAS are very good at providing information in such instances....
ACAS were crap when we had an e/ee dispute they gave conflicting advice etc. acas website said:
What options does an employer have if an employee is on long term sick absence?
Where an employee is on long term sickness absence, the employer should investigate the nature of the employee's sickness so that they have information about how long the absence is likely to last, and to consider whether there are any workplace adjustments that might help the employee return to work. They could ask the employee for consent to obtain a medical report from their GP or other medical professionals, or make a referral to an occupational health adviser.
The employer should maintain a reasonable level of contact with the employee during their absence. If the employee has been receiving Statutory Sick Pay (SSP), then after 28 weeks this will expire and the employer should provide the employee with form SSP1. The employee will continue to accrue holidays while they are on sick leave, which will generally be rolled over until the employee returns to work or leaves employment, unless they request and are granted permission to use them before the leave year expires.
If the medical reports indicate that there is no prospect of the employee returning to work in the foreseeable future, and there are no adjustments that the employer can make to help the employee's return, the employer could consider ending the employee's employment. Capability is one of the potentially fair reasons for dismissal; the employer would need to show that they have also carried out a fair procedure and that dismissal is the last resort.
Of course though, always satisfy yourself and seek your own advice before committing.Where an employee is on long term sickness absence, the employer should investigate the nature of the employee's sickness so that they have information about how long the absence is likely to last, and to consider whether there are any workplace adjustments that might help the employee return to work. They could ask the employee for consent to obtain a medical report from their GP or other medical professionals, or make a referral to an occupational health adviser.
The employer should maintain a reasonable level of contact with the employee during their absence. If the employee has been receiving Statutory Sick Pay (SSP), then after 28 weeks this will expire and the employer should provide the employee with form SSP1. The employee will continue to accrue holidays while they are on sick leave, which will generally be rolled over until the employee returns to work or leaves employment, unless they request and are granted permission to use them before the leave year expires.
If the medical reports indicate that there is no prospect of the employee returning to work in the foreseeable future, and there are no adjustments that the employer can make to help the employee's return, the employer could consider ending the employee's employment. Capability is one of the potentially fair reasons for dismissal; the employer would need to show that they have also carried out a fair procedure and that dismissal is the last resort.
Use a solicitor and take their advice, let them give the notices/warnings etc if required. It is a minefield and you need to be very careful. You do have a staff handbook with your policy on sickness I trust?
Tricky one. As an employer, you have an obligation to the well being of the business and the employees and the two do not always make for happy bedfellows.
As the chap's been with you from the start, I assume the relationship with him is otherwise good and he was a good worker. In the first instance, I'd call round to see him and have a frank chat about things. The chances are, he's expecting this anyway and I've always found open, face to face discussions tend to lead to the least painful and most rapid conclusion for all concerned. If you can offer him something beyond your legal obligations, he is less likely to respond to the inevitable (uninformed) calls from members of his family and friends to take action against you for fear of loosing that extra something. He will be on your side and your other workers will look more favourably on you for going beyond the call of duty for a colleague on his downers.
Alternatively, is there not an alternative role in the company he can fulfil that requires less exertion even on a part-time basis for less money? I believe this may form the basis of any legal route you go. You have to prove that the employee is or will be physically incapable of carrying out their duties and that those duties cannot be made less strenuous or that an alternative role within the company cannot be found.
If the direct approach yields nothing, then I'd suggest an employment-specialist law firm is your next call.
Good luck - as you say, it's a minefield.
As the chap's been with you from the start, I assume the relationship with him is otherwise good and he was a good worker. In the first instance, I'd call round to see him and have a frank chat about things. The chances are, he's expecting this anyway and I've always found open, face to face discussions tend to lead to the least painful and most rapid conclusion for all concerned. If you can offer him something beyond your legal obligations, he is less likely to respond to the inevitable (uninformed) calls from members of his family and friends to take action against you for fear of loosing that extra something. He will be on your side and your other workers will look more favourably on you for going beyond the call of duty for a colleague on his downers.
Alternatively, is there not an alternative role in the company he can fulfil that requires less exertion even on a part-time basis for less money? I believe this may form the basis of any legal route you go. You have to prove that the employee is or will be physically incapable of carrying out their duties and that those duties cannot be made less strenuous or that an alternative role within the company cannot be found.
If the direct approach yields nothing, then I'd suggest an employment-specialist law firm is your next call.
Good luck - as you say, it's a minefield.
northwest monkey said:
We use peninsula and find them to be very good. So a thumbs up from us.northwest monkey said:
As a small business I used Eclipse executive HR for 10 years - based in Chester a smaller HR companyStevieBee said:
As the chap's been with you from the start, I assume the relationship with him is otherwise good and he was a good worker. In the first instance, I'd call round to see him and have a frank chat about things. The chances are, he's expecting this anyway and I've always found open, face to face discussions tend to lead to the least painful and most rapid conclusion for all concerned. If you can offer him something beyond your legal obligations, he is less likely to respond to the inevitable (uninformed) calls from members of his family and friends to take action against you for fear of loosing that extra something. He will be on your side and your other workers will look more favourably on you for going beyond the call of duty for a colleague on his downers.
He has been with me from the start and I do intend to have an informal discussion with him face to face to talk about his future, however, he's not the brightest firework in the sky and his partner, from what I can gather is one of the "take them for all you can" dole claiming types so I want to have all the facts prior to meeting.Of course I want to be fair to this guy, I have worked with him a long time, however, right now he is a drain on the business and he doesn't look like recovering, therefore my hand is being forced. Would we think 3 months on the sick is long enough? Considering its a labour intensive job and he has serious health issues removing his ability to work?
Tuvra said:
He has been with me from the start and I do intend to have an informal discussion with him face to face to talk about his future, however, he's not the brightest firework in the sky and his partner, from what I can gather is one of the "take them for all you can" dole claiming types so I want to have all the facts prior to meeting.
Of course I want to be fair to this guy, I have worked with him a long time, however, right now he is a drain on the business and he doesn't look like recovering, therefore my hand is being forced. Would we think 3 months on the sick is long enough? Considering its a labour intensive job and he has serious health issues removing his ability to work?
It's a tough one as when I read long term sick then read 3 months it didn't seem that long to me but to have a man down in the business for that time must seem like an eternity!Of course I want to be fair to this guy, I have worked with him a long time, however, right now he is a drain on the business and he doesn't look like recovering, therefore my hand is being forced. Would we think 3 months on the sick is long enough? Considering its a labour intensive job and he has serious health issues removing his ability to work?
He doesn't know you post on here does he?
You need legal advise on this as like you say you've read numerous things on the net, you're likely to get equally conflicting advise on here for our resident legal eagles.
Tuvra said:
Would we think 3 months on the sick is long enough?
Get some proper advice (i.e. not off an internet forum). I've seen the results of Tribunals & some of the awards look like they hurt. I posted up a link before & someone else has posted another one - this is bread & butter stuff to companies specialising in this sort of thing.You don't think he is going to recover. Are you a doctor who has examined him? No. Can you see where this is going? Do you have Occupational Health? If so, has he been referred?
There is case law on a reasonable process but the reason why you have not been given a "yes or no" is because the correct answer is "it depends"... On a number of factors.
Therefore, as above, take insured advice and follow the process required. Even then, a claim may be lodged.
ETA - in your shoes as a practical matter I would offer him say 2k to leave under a COT3 or compromise agreement - a COT3 via ACAS is a cheaper and potentially swifter (give what I assume are your circumstances i.e. no retained legal advisor).
There is case law on a reasonable process but the reason why you have not been given a "yes or no" is because the correct answer is "it depends"... On a number of factors.
Therefore, as above, take insured advice and follow the process required. Even then, a claim may be lodged.
ETA - in your shoes as a practical matter I would offer him say 2k to leave under a COT3 or compromise agreement - a COT3 via ACAS is a cheaper and potentially swifter (give what I assume are your circumstances i.e. no retained legal advisor).
Jasandjules said:
You don't think he is going to recover. Are you a doctor who has examined him? No. Can you see where this is going? Do you have Occupational Health? If so, has he been referred?
There is case law on a reasonable process but the reason why you have not been given a "yes or no" is because the correct answer is "it depends"... On a number of factors.
Therefore, as above, take insured advice and follow the process required. Even then, a claim may be lodged.
ETA - in your shoes as a practical matter I would offer him say 2k to leave under a COT3 or compromise agreement - a COT3 via ACAS is a cheaper and potentially swifter (give what I assume are your circumstances i.e. no retained legal advisor).
You don't need a weather man to tell you when its raining. He's fThere is case law on a reasonable process but the reason why you have not been given a "yes or no" is because the correct answer is "it depends"... On a number of factors.
Therefore, as above, take insured advice and follow the process required. Even then, a claim may be lodged.
ETA - in your shoes as a practical matter I would offer him say 2k to leave under a COT3 or compromise agreement - a COT3 via ACAS is a cheaper and potentially swifter (give what I assume are your circumstances i.e. no retained legal advisor).
ked and has basically told me so. The fact that hes off sick with angina and breathing issues and still smoking 10 (mini) cigars a day is pissing me off as well so enough is enough now.Where have you plucked £2k from considering you have no idea what he earns?!?
Thanks for the advice, I will be seeking Legal advice over this just to cover myself
Tuvra said:
You don't need a weather man to tell you when its raining. He's fked and has basically told me so. The fact that hes off sick with angina and breathing issues and still smoking 10 (mini) cigars a day is pissing me off as well so enough is enough now.
Where have you plucked £2k from considering you have no idea what he earns?!?
Thanks for the advice, I will be seeking Legal advice over this just to cover myself
No, but you asked for advice as to how you can dismiss someone. And I have told you.ked and has basically told me so. The fact that hes off sick with angina and breathing issues and still smoking 10 (mini) cigars a day is pissing me off as well so enough is enough now.Where have you plucked £2k from considering you have no idea what he earns?!?
Thanks for the advice, I will be seeking Legal advice over this just to cover myself
I can also tell you if you rock up to an ET if he lodged a claim and said that, you would lose. Then you will have your costs to pay, and pay him some (possibly minimal) compensation. But it could be a disability and it could cost you rather a lot.
Of course, you don't have to get any medical opinion and can just go with your view, it is up to you.
2k is cheaper than it will cost you to even prepare an ET3.... I did put "say" - because I didn't know the income range.
ETA - oh and you also need to pay his contractual notice.
Edited by Jasandjules on Wednesday 6th January 11:21
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