Dodgy handshake experience, bungs?
Discussion
How often does this still happen??? Alot i imagine.
I am taking on a new position in our relatively small company where i am really needing to win some work.
We are a roofing company that specializes in flat roofs (mainly single ply membrane systems) and a bit of cladding. Theres a approx 12 in the firm the chief, me and a number of fitters/labourers.
Its quite a niche market and 95% of it is commercial, mainly due to the system being a little more expensive than traditional felt but also many home owners wont be aware of the other products.
My boss has mentioned many times that he is often considerably cheaper than others offering a like for like product and just doesn't get a look in. Recently we were £100k cheaper than the firm that won the job and we were offering a premium brand product with same guarantees etc... this job was for the council and it seems this product they are going with seems to be winning with all the schools recently even though last year we did 3 schools and none have had issues ....
I thought schools were meant to be trying to save expenditures...
It comes a point where we have to think is there much point of even tendering for these schools. It seems we could do them for nothing and still don't get a look in,
Maybe its just us being skeptics but seems a little too fishy.
Is it still a case of who you know?? i believe in Scotland its an open book type tender system...?
I am taking on a new position in our relatively small company where i am really needing to win some work.
We are a roofing company that specializes in flat roofs (mainly single ply membrane systems) and a bit of cladding. Theres a approx 12 in the firm the chief, me and a number of fitters/labourers.
Its quite a niche market and 95% of it is commercial, mainly due to the system being a little more expensive than traditional felt but also many home owners wont be aware of the other products.
My boss has mentioned many times that he is often considerably cheaper than others offering a like for like product and just doesn't get a look in. Recently we were £100k cheaper than the firm that won the job and we were offering a premium brand product with same guarantees etc... this job was for the council and it seems this product they are going with seems to be winning with all the schools recently even though last year we did 3 schools and none have had issues ....
I thought schools were meant to be trying to save expenditures...
It comes a point where we have to think is there much point of even tendering for these schools. It seems we could do them for nothing and still don't get a look in,
Maybe its just us being skeptics but seems a little too fishy.
Is it still a case of who you know?? i believe in Scotland its an open book type tender system...?
Edited by likesachange on Thursday 10th March 08:49
Often too cheap can lose you the tender, i.e. it's way out of line with other quotes, stick £75k on the quote, you'll still be cheapest but in the right ball park at least.
We recently lost a (private sector) tender because we were too cheap i.e. £300k stationery spend p.a. Buyer was looking for £100k reduction, we quoted circa £50k on the specific list of items he gave us. Feedback was prices are too good to be true, others all coming in at the guideline £200k, don't believe you can deliver that hence we're not taking your quote any further. Nuts.
We recently lost a (private sector) tender because we were too cheap i.e. £300k stationery spend p.a. Buyer was looking for £100k reduction, we quoted circa £50k on the specific list of items he gave us. Feedback was prices are too good to be true, others all coming in at the guideline £200k, don't believe you can deliver that hence we're not taking your quote any further. Nuts.
I used to work for a council ordering and arranging work to housing. I was never offered a 'bung' by a contractor (and would never have accepted if I was) but am happy to 'admit' to bias towards companies that I knew would do a good job and wouldn't mess me about finding problems and adding extras. If I knew I could award the contract, leave them to it then inspect the completed work a few weeks later and pay the invoice as originally priced , then I would choose them every time over someone who had a record of going in low at pricing stage, causing all sorts of problems along the way, then coming in with a higher price at the end.
You've said you only recently joined this company? Do you know what sort of a reputation/past record they have? It may be that the clients either don't have any experience of you or that previous experience of your company is bad? Either way, all you can do is offer decent prices and try to build a reputation for decent work. If you do find out your company has a bad reputation, it will be worth your while trying to meet potential clients and pointing out that you are new to the company, any improvements you've made and how you plan to improve going forward. No dodgy handshakes required.
You've said you only recently joined this company? Do you know what sort of a reputation/past record they have? It may be that the clients either don't have any experience of you or that previous experience of your company is bad? Either way, all you can do is offer decent prices and try to build a reputation for decent work. If you do find out your company has a bad reputation, it will be worth your while trying to meet potential clients and pointing out that you are new to the company, any improvements you've made and how you plan to improve going forward. No dodgy handshakes required.
likesachange said:
Maybe its just us being skeptics but seems a little too fishy.
Is it still a case of who you know?? i believe in Scotland its an open book type tender system...?
It happens: http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/c...Is it still a case of who you know?? i believe in Scotland its an open book type tender system...?
Yes can kind of understand the "too cheap" thoughts, suppose its a balancing game. And getting your foot in the door
I have worked for this firm for 12 years (as a fitter) and i genuinely believe we are one of the best at what we do out there, especially in the single ply business as all our fitters have 10yr plus experience and the boss has been doing it since the early 90's.
I suppose its convincing potential clients that we do provide a second to none service.
vanordinaire said:
I used to work for a council ordering and arranging work to housing. I was never offered a 'bung' by a contractor (and would never have accepted if I was) but am happy to 'admit' to bias towards companies that I knew would do a good job and wouldn't mess me about finding problems and adding extras. If I knew I could award the contract, leave them to it then inspect the completed work a few weeks later and pay the invoice as originally priced , then I would choose them every time over someone who had a record of going in low at pricing stage, causing all sorts of problems along the way, then coming in with a higher price at the end.
You've said you only recently joined this company? Do you know what sort of a reputation/past record they have? It may be that the clients either don't have any experience of you or that previous experience of your company is bad? Either way, all you can do is offer decent prices and try to build a reputation for decent work. If you do find out your company has a bad reputation, it will be worth your while trying to meet potential clients and pointing out that you are new to the company, any improvements you've made and how you plan to improve going forward. No dodgy handshakes required.
Yeah i agree with the above also, we also would rather sub contract out to a firm that is reliable and are very skilled than save a few quid and get some one we don't know, often false economy.You've said you only recently joined this company? Do you know what sort of a reputation/past record they have? It may be that the clients either don't have any experience of you or that previous experience of your company is bad? Either way, all you can do is offer decent prices and try to build a reputation for decent work. If you do find out your company has a bad reputation, it will be worth your while trying to meet potential clients and pointing out that you are new to the company, any improvements you've made and how you plan to improve going forward. No dodgy handshakes required.
I have worked for this firm for 12 years (as a fitter) and i genuinely believe we are one of the best at what we do out there, especially in the single ply business as all our fitters have 10yr plus experience and the boss has been doing it since the early 90's.
I suppose its convincing potential clients that we do provide a second to none service.
likesachange said:
Yeah i agree with the above also, we also would rather sub contract out to a firm that is reliable and are very skilled than save a few quid and get some one we don't know, often false economy.
I have worked for this firm for 12 years (as a fitter) and i genuinely believe we are one of the best at what we do out there, especially in the single ply business as all our fitters have 10yr plus experience and the boss has been doing it since the early 90's.
I suppose its convincing potential clients that we do provide a second to none service.
What system do you use? Could you get some sort of support from the manufacturer? I worked for a company that was an authorised installer for Dryseal, they were great, would get their sales team involved on our behalf if it was a big tender and quite often found us work on the back of tradeshows etc that they had attended.I have worked for this firm for 12 years (as a fitter) and i genuinely believe we are one of the best at what we do out there, especially in the single ply business as all our fitters have 10yr plus experience and the boss has been doing it since the early 90's.
I suppose its convincing potential clients that we do provide a second to none service.
vanordinaire said:
What system do you use? Could you get some sort of support from the manufacturer? I worked for a company that was an authorised installer for Dryseal, they were great, would get their sales team involved on our behalf if it was a big tender and quite often found us work on the back of tradeshows etc that they had attended.
Sarnafil is the main one we use along with Cefil a new and cheaper product but essentially same quality.Sarnafil have been on the case but not sure they commit much time to the jobs up here in cumbria....
vanordinaire said:
How far up in Cumbria are you? Worth coming over the border for work? There don't seem to many doing your type of work in D&G or the Borders.
Yeah we often travel for the work, We have a good relationship with the Scottish Briggs Amasco branches (one of the biggest UK roofing firms) and they often use us as subcontractors. We have 2 jobs at the moment for them and one we did at Edinburgh last year won a national award, although we didn't get a mention...If you're willing to do all this work cheaper than competitors is there any way you could be sub-contracted by them to do the work they've been awarded? I would think in reality this would be difficult but not impossible.
i.e. company B wins £300k worth of work and your company is willing to do it for £200k anyway. Company B pays your company £200k and comes out of it with £100k (minus all the complications of course)
i.e. company B wins £300k worth of work and your company is willing to do it for £200k anyway. Company B pays your company £200k and comes out of it with £100k (minus all the complications of course)
ModernAndy said:
If you're willing to do all this work cheaper than competitors is there any way you could be sub-contracted by them to do the work they've been awarded? I would think in reality this would be difficult but not impossible.
i.e. company B wins £300k worth of work and your company is willing to do it for £200k anyway. Company B pays your company £200k and comes out of it with £100k (minus all the complications of course)
That's actually a very fair point and not one i have thought about.i.e. company B wins £300k worth of work and your company is willing to do it for £200k anyway. Company B pays your company £200k and comes out of it with £100k (minus all the complications of course)
Might look further into that.
Mr Overheads said:
Often too cheap can lose you the tender, i.e. it's way out of line with other quotes, stick £75k on the quote, you'll still be cheapest but in the right ball park at least.
We recently lost a (private sector) tender because we were too cheap i.e. £300k stationery spend p.a. Buyer was looking for £100k reduction, we quoted circa £50k on the specific list of items he gave us. Feedback was prices are too good to be true, others all coming in at the guideline £200k, don't believe you can deliver that hence we're not taking your quote any further. Nuts.
This is a tricky one. We fall foul of it too at times, however I have also been to fix many projects that were "too cheap to be true" that turned out to be so. We recently lost a (private sector) tender because we were too cheap i.e. £300k stationery spend p.a. Buyer was looking for £100k reduction, we quoted circa £50k on the specific list of items he gave us. Feedback was prices are too good to be true, others all coming in at the guideline £200k, don't believe you can deliver that hence we're not taking your quote any further. Nuts.
Simpo Two said:
Councils do not think in any way I have ever been able to understand, and certainly not like rational human beings or businessmen. You're probably better off without work from them.
Trouble is schools are a big part of the pie. Especially in Cumbria where there is little commercial development. 90% of schools have flat roofs around here and many are in a bad state.It does happen, it's a nightmare to prove though.
OP - depending on the size of the order / tender you "should" be able to see the scoring/award process and ask them why you haven't been awarded it. If they are awarding contracts to the same company over and over again you might want to mention it to their Internal Audit department.
Public Sector used to be notorious for backhanders. It is getting harder and harder but it still happens. One of the places where I worked we only found out about one Contract manager getting backhanders because somebody else in his team was also getting backhanders from another Contractor and they had bid for the same contract.
OP - depending on the size of the order / tender you "should" be able to see the scoring/award process and ask them why you haven't been awarded it. If they are awarding contracts to the same company over and over again you might want to mention it to their Internal Audit department.
Public Sector used to be notorious for backhanders. It is getting harder and harder but it still happens. One of the places where I worked we only found out about one Contract manager getting backhanders because somebody else in his team was also getting backhanders from another Contractor and they had bid for the same contract.
likesachange said:
Trouble is schools are a big part of the pie. Especially in Cumbria where there is little commercial development. 90% of schools have flat roofs around here and many are in a bad state.
Oh well, if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Open your suitcase full of cash and ask 'How much?''Chequebook tendering'
I work for a Main Contractor - most of our work is in schools - local authority controlled, private, academies and church aided.
You need to remember many schools are now academies in control of their own budget.
Funding is provided through the EFA.
The spec is set by the architect employed by the school. They often have their "preferred" roofing system.
The school often have no idea on the spec, all they want to know is the length of warranty.
Without going into specifics - one group of local schools will not allow single ply membranes as they perceive them to be more susceptible to damage/vandalism. Likewise we changed the spec on a recent school re-frurb project from bitumen felt to single ply and gave the school a £70k saving - same warranty. Hard to ignore.
Even schools under LA control still have some freedom. If they bid for funding and are awarded the money they can buy-in the council in-house project managers for a %fee or go to a private architects practice.
In reality you have no more than 4/5/6 architect practices that serve all the schools, colleges etc in a county.
These are the guys you need to make yourself aware to - I'm not suggesting you aim to be a nominated subcontractor but your system, Sarnafil, may get specified at tender stage.
Manufacturer support - Not just financial. For example - free surveys at pre-tender stage on local schools to identify and prioritise what needs attention and when. They provide a spec, provide drawings and details the architects can use and include in tender packs - manufacturers do their donkey work and in return their system is nominated. As the installer you are in contact with the manufacturer doing these surveys and will know what is coming up and when.
Find out who is on the tender list and submit your quotes to all the main contractors.
I'll shut up now.
You need to remember many schools are now academies in control of their own budget.
Funding is provided through the EFA.
The spec is set by the architect employed by the school. They often have their "preferred" roofing system.
The school often have no idea on the spec, all they want to know is the length of warranty.
Without going into specifics - one group of local schools will not allow single ply membranes as they perceive them to be more susceptible to damage/vandalism. Likewise we changed the spec on a recent school re-frurb project from bitumen felt to single ply and gave the school a £70k saving - same warranty. Hard to ignore.
Even schools under LA control still have some freedom. If they bid for funding and are awarded the money they can buy-in the council in-house project managers for a %fee or go to a private architects practice.
In reality you have no more than 4/5/6 architect practices that serve all the schools, colleges etc in a county.
These are the guys you need to make yourself aware to - I'm not suggesting you aim to be a nominated subcontractor but your system, Sarnafil, may get specified at tender stage.
Manufacturer support - Not just financial. For example - free surveys at pre-tender stage on local schools to identify and prioritise what needs attention and when. They provide a spec, provide drawings and details the architects can use and include in tender packs - manufacturers do their donkey work and in return their system is nominated. As the installer you are in contact with the manufacturer doing these surveys and will know what is coming up and when.
Find out who is on the tender list and submit your quotes to all the main contractors.
I'll shut up now.
Edited by astroarcadia on Thursday 10th March 20:12
I understand your frustation at trying to deal with Council's, but believe me dont give in and keep trying new ways to get yourself in there, even if they choose not to use your directly as said previously approach the contractors working on specific projects etc, and try to win the work that, eventually they will see sense.
Trouble with most councils in my opinion is that it isnt their money so in reality its easier to go with the company they have used for the last 10years as it makes their work life easier.
Just my opinion but dont give up and keep going it will pay off in the long run..
Trouble with most councils in my opinion is that it isnt their money so in reality its easier to go with the company they have used for the last 10years as it makes their work life easier.
Just my opinion but dont give up and keep going it will pay off in the long run..
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff