Moral question on Furlough scheme
Discussion
Hoping someone can help or tell me I'm over-thinking it.
I am a UK employee of a large multi-national. WW revenue is circa £10bn with very strong margins. They are relatively cash rich and privately owned.
We have been notified of plans to restrict activities and place majority of employees placed on the Furlough scheme. The company will kindly contribute the difference (20% and cap) to current base salaries.
My issue is the company's financial position. The GOV website says the scheme is available to any company significantly impacted by COVID-19 but it feels a little wrong for a company of this size to be claiming this grant. I accept that the majority of companies are impacted, but I interpret the GOV direction to be directed at companies with liquidity issues as a result; as such restructuring their functions. Surely this isn't supposed to be a "gift" to each and every company in UK regardless of balance sheet etc.
Am I being dim?
I am a UK employee of a large multi-national. WW revenue is circa £10bn with very strong margins. They are relatively cash rich and privately owned.
We have been notified of plans to restrict activities and place majority of employees placed on the Furlough scheme. The company will kindly contribute the difference (20% and cap) to current base salaries.
My issue is the company's financial position. The GOV website says the scheme is available to any company significantly impacted by COVID-19 but it feels a little wrong for a company of this size to be claiming this grant. I accept that the majority of companies are impacted, but I interpret the GOV direction to be directed at companies with liquidity issues as a result; as such restructuring their functions. Surely this isn't supposed to be a "gift" to each and every company in UK regardless of balance sheet etc.
Am I being dim?
Its purpose is to avoid redundancies.
If the business has no work for you to do and would otherwise make you redundant, which they can do even if they have squilions in the bank, they can utilise the furlough scheme.
If they have work for you do to but are concerned about cashflow and being paid, they cannot use the furlough scheme and should use their reserves or the government backed loans if eligible.
If the business has no work for you to do and would otherwise make you redundant, which they can do even if they have squilions in the bank, they can utilise the furlough scheme.
If they have work for you do to but are concerned about cashflow and being paid, they cannot use the furlough scheme and should use their reserves or the government backed loans if eligible.
Stay in Bed Instead said:
If they have work for you do to but are concerned about cashflow and being paid, they cannot use the furlough scheme and should use their reserves or the government backed loans if eligible.
Surely cashflow could mean someone has to be made redundant no matter how much work they have, it’s not as black and white as that.Know what you mean OP. Just feels wrong - cash rich company leeching of the state as it doesn't want to eat into its own resources even a bit. So much for shared pain, putting in place a scheme to protect the most vulnerable. Rich people and rich companies are terrified of the thought they might have to cushion the blow a bit, so pass the burden onto all of us. Another example of privatising the profits and socialising the losses and risks. They'd be the first no doubt to make good use of the tax loopholes to hoard cash and wealth in the first place rather than pay it to the state to provide the money we now see we desperately need for the NHS and to offer a safety net for the country.
I hope HMRC at the end of the takes the opportunity to look back at who's taken the state shilling while sitting on significant cash piles and seek some reparations. Not enough to financially damage them, but sufficient that it mitigates the greedy who have just taken the piss.
I have my own company and have been prudent to build up a cushion over several years. I'm probably entitled to draw on the support but have taken the view that I have the ability to ride this out for a while and others are in more desperate times than me.
I hope HMRC at the end of the takes the opportunity to look back at who's taken the state shilling while sitting on significant cash piles and seek some reparations. Not enough to financially damage them, but sufficient that it mitigates the greedy who have just taken the piss.
I have my own company and have been prudent to build up a cushion over several years. I'm probably entitled to draw on the support but have taken the view that I have the ability to ride this out for a while and others are in more desperate times than me.
If the company meets the requirements of the scheme, it would be crazy not to take the money
That it is topping up furloughed staff salaries with the additional 20% is a sign it is keen to look after you and your colleagues
Sit tight, stay healthy and go back with enthusiasm when this is over
That it is topping up furloughed staff salaries with the additional 20% is a sign it is keen to look after you and your colleagues
Sit tight, stay healthy and go back with enthusiasm when this is over
Hmm.
If it's a big enough company, they would have to carry out 90 days of meaningful consultation (on full pay) before redundancies are agreed.
Then probably have to pay a shed load of redundancy money.
When the dust settles, there'd be the costs of re-employing (and training) an entire workforce.
Some bigger outfits need to shoulder a bit more of the costs.
They've had a lifetime of exploiting tax breaks, time for some quid pro quo?
If it's a big enough company, they would have to carry out 90 days of meaningful consultation (on full pay) before redundancies are agreed.
Then probably have to pay a shed load of redundancy money.
When the dust settles, there'd be the costs of re-employing (and training) an entire workforce.
Some bigger outfits need to shoulder a bit more of the costs.
They've had a lifetime of exploiting tax breaks, time for some quid pro quo?
At least they are topping up your wages, I finally got furghloed Yesterday, not complaining as at least I have a job still to go back to, but it will be a struggle at the 80%,
I know what you mean morally look at the football clubs doing the same,
I guess there will be a few in the greater scheme of things that will take advantage.
I know what you mean morally look at the football clubs doing the same,
I guess there will be a few in the greater scheme of things that will take advantage.
marcusjames said:
Hoping someone can help or tell me I'm over-thinking it.
I am a UK employee of a large multi-national. WW revenue is circa £10bn with very strong margins. They are relatively cash rich and privately owned.
We have been notified of plans to restrict activities and place majority of employees placed on the Furlough scheme. The company will kindly contribute the difference (20% and cap) to current base salaries.
My issue is the company's financial position. The GOV website says the scheme is available to any company significantly impacted by COVID-19 but it feels a little wrong for a company of this size to be claiming this grant. I accept that the majority of companies are impacted, but I interpret the GOV direction to be directed at companies with liquidity issues as a result; as such restructuring their functions. Surely this isn't supposed to be a "gift" to each and every company in UK regardless of balance sheet etc.
Am I being dim?
Wife in same boat. Employed by a very successful highly respected university. Their boss is one of the highest paid in the UK apparently in academia (reputedly £350-400k)I am a UK employee of a large multi-national. WW revenue is circa £10bn with very strong margins. They are relatively cash rich and privately owned.
We have been notified of plans to restrict activities and place majority of employees placed on the Furlough scheme. The company will kindly contribute the difference (20% and cap) to current base salaries.
My issue is the company's financial position. The GOV website says the scheme is available to any company significantly impacted by COVID-19 but it feels a little wrong for a company of this size to be claiming this grant. I accept that the majority of companies are impacted, but I interpret the GOV direction to be directed at companies with liquidity issues as a result; as such restructuring their functions. Surely this isn't supposed to be a "gift" to each and every company in UK regardless of balance sheet etc.
Am I being dim?
They've immediately started plans to furlough staff and pay 80% without the top up. Very basic emails sent, managers suggesting staff can choose "options" but without listing them clearly. The spirit of the govt offer appears to be if you would be out of business and making staff redundant. Wife has asked if voluntary redundancy can be considered as it would suit her personally. No redundancies this is just to get thro 3 months was the reply.
Smacks of pushing the envelope to get pay from the govt while they are waiting to see what actually happens. Universities aren't closing down anytime soon, yes they need to plan but would they go bust?
Edited by 200Plus Club on Wednesday 1st April 20:35
200Plus Club said:
Wife in same boat. Employed by a very successful highly respected university. Their boss is one of the highest paid in the UK apparently in academia (reputedly £350-400k)
They've immediately started plans to furlough staff and pay 80% without the top up. Very basic emails sent, managers suggesting staff can choose "options" but without listing them clearly. The spirit of the govt offer appears to be if you would be out of business and making staff redundant. Wife has asked if voluntary redundancy can be considered as it would suit her personally. No redundancies this is just to get thro 3 months was the reply.
Smacks of pushing the envelope to get pay from the govt while they are waiting to see what actually happens. Universities aren't closing down anytime soon, yes they need to plan but would they go bust?
University is an interesting one indeed, surely they’ve received all tuition fees from students etc so their revenue is actually already there to pay staff. In which case if govt steps in with the 80% it’ll effectively hugely boost their ‘profits’? They've immediately started plans to furlough staff and pay 80% without the top up. Very basic emails sent, managers suggesting staff can choose "options" but without listing them clearly. The spirit of the govt offer appears to be if you would be out of business and making staff redundant. Wife has asked if voluntary redundancy can be considered as it would suit her personally. No redundancies this is just to get thro 3 months was the reply.
Smacks of pushing the envelope to get pay from the govt while they are waiting to see what actually happens. Universities aren't closing down anytime soon, yes they need to plan but would they go bust?
Edited by 200Plus Club on Wednesday 1st April 20:35
A lot of this doesn’t sit right with me but no real efficient way for the govt to properly vet something like this, they needed to get something out there and something out there fast. I hope after this they do come back at a lot of the super rich and cash rich companies so that they properly start to pay their way rather than continually increasing rich poor divide - looking at you american airline outfits who lined the pockets of the board and then came for handouts when s
t hit the fan. As a private enterprise you need to prepare for the bad as much as the good surely. lewisf182 said:
200Plus Club said:
Wife in same boat. Employed by a very successful highly respected university. Their boss is one of the highest paid in the UK apparently in academia (reputedly £350-400k)
They've immediately started plans to furlough staff and pay 80% without the top up. Very basic emails sent, managers suggesting staff can choose "options" but without listing them clearly. The spirit of the govt offer appears to be if you would be out of business and making staff redundant. Wife has asked if voluntary redundancy can be considered as it would suit her personally. No redundancies this is just to get thro 3 months was the reply.
Smacks of pushing the envelope to get pay from the govt while they are waiting to see what actually happens. Universities aren't closing down anytime soon, yes they need to plan but would they go bust?
University is an interesting one indeed, surely they’ve received all tuition fees from students etc so their revenue is actually already there to pay staff. In which case if govt steps in with the 80% it’ll effectively hugely boost their ‘profits’? They've immediately started plans to furlough staff and pay 80% without the top up. Very basic emails sent, managers suggesting staff can choose "options" but without listing them clearly. The spirit of the govt offer appears to be if you would be out of business and making staff redundant. Wife has asked if voluntary redundancy can be considered as it would suit her personally. No redundancies this is just to get thro 3 months was the reply.
Smacks of pushing the envelope to get pay from the govt while they are waiting to see what actually happens. Universities aren't closing down anytime soon, yes they need to plan but would they go bust?
Edited by 200Plus Club on Wednesday 1st April 20:35
A lot of this doesn’t sit right with me but no real efficient way for the govt to properly vet something like this, they needed to get something out there and something out there fast. I hope after this they do come back at a lot of the super rich and cash rich companies so that they properly start to pay their way rather than continually increasing rich poor divide - looking at you american airline outfits who lined the pockets of the board and then came for handouts when s
t hit the fan. As a private enterprise you need to prepare for the bad as much as the good surely. Thankfully it doesn't affect us financially she can afford to be pushed out as they'll have to offer something else or redundancy if some staff don't agree to furlough but it just stinks, as does the situation with spurs and Newcastle billionaire owners robbing the public purse also.
The tax contribution, that my business' economic activity produces is equal to 23% of turnover (VAT, Corp tax, PAYE & NI)
The wage bill for my small business is approximately 30% of turnover.
So my tax contribution equals 77% of my wage bill, effectively I'm getting my tax back to keep paying wages (in a very roundabout way)
The amount of tax we pay often hurts, but at a time like this, I have to feel proud of what we contribute into the public purse,
I have little sympathy for those who chose to opt out of paying tax, either a big company (Starbucks, Amazon, Facebook Etc) who pay virtually no corp tax but even less for the cash trader who is below the radar and pays nothing at all. The big ones do after all pay a lot of VAT and PAYE
Perhaps we should assess entitlement by past contribution.
One thing for certain, much of the black economy is going to suffer a "Come to Jesus" moment over the next few months
The wage bill for my small business is approximately 30% of turnover.
So my tax contribution equals 77% of my wage bill, effectively I'm getting my tax back to keep paying wages (in a very roundabout way)
The amount of tax we pay often hurts, but at a time like this, I have to feel proud of what we contribute into the public purse,
I have little sympathy for those who chose to opt out of paying tax, either a big company (Starbucks, Amazon, Facebook Etc) who pay virtually no corp tax but even less for the cash trader who is below the radar and pays nothing at all. The big ones do after all pay a lot of VAT and PAYE
Perhaps we should assess entitlement by past contribution.
One thing for certain, much of the black economy is going to suffer a "Come to Jesus" moment over the next few months
dartissimus said:
The tax contribution, that my business' economic activity produces is equal to 23% of turnover (VAT, Corp tax, PAYE & NI)
The wage bill for my small business is approximately 30% of turnover.
So my tax contribution equals 77% of my wage bill, effectively I'm getting my tax back to keep paying wages (in a very roundabout way)
The amount of tax we pay often hurts, but at a time like this, I have to feel proud of what we contribute into the public purse,
I have little sympathy for those who chose to opt out of paying tax, either a big company (Starbucks, Amazon, Facebook Etc) who pay virtually no corp tax but even less for the cash trader who is below the radar and pays nothing at all. The big ones do after all pay a lot of VAT and PAYE
Perhaps we should assess entitlement by past contribution.
One thing for certain, much of the black economy is going to suffer a "Come to Jesus" moment over the next few months
PAYE is paid by employees, and is in both figures. Employees pay NI as well, so part of your NI is in both figures. VAT is paid by the end user, and you can reclaim VAT suffered on your purchases where relevant. The wage bill for my small business is approximately 30% of turnover.
So my tax contribution equals 77% of my wage bill, effectively I'm getting my tax back to keep paying wages (in a very roundabout way)
The amount of tax we pay often hurts, but at a time like this, I have to feel proud of what we contribute into the public purse,
I have little sympathy for those who chose to opt out of paying tax, either a big company (Starbucks, Amazon, Facebook Etc) who pay virtually no corp tax but even less for the cash trader who is below the radar and pays nothing at all. The big ones do after all pay a lot of VAT and PAYE
Perhaps we should assess entitlement by past contribution.
One thing for certain, much of the black economy is going to suffer a "Come to Jesus" moment over the next few months
strattonkillick said:
dartissimus said:
The tax contribution, that my business' economic activity produces is equal to 23% of turnover (VAT, Corp tax, PAYE & NI)
The wage bill for my small business is approximately 30% of turnover.
So my tax contribution equals 77% of my wage bill, effectively I'm getting my tax back to keep paying wages (in a very roundabout way)
The amount of tax we pay often hurts, but at a time like this, I have to feel proud of what we contribute into the public purse,
I have little sympathy for those who chose to opt out of paying tax, either a big company (Starbucks, Amazon, Facebook Etc) who pay virtually no corp tax but even less for the cash trader who is below the radar and pays nothing at all. The big ones do after all pay a lot of VAT and PAYE
Perhaps we should assess entitlement by past contribution.
One thing for certain, much of the black economy is going to suffer a "Come to Jesus" moment over the next few months
PAYE is paid by employees, and is in both figures. Employees pay NI as well, so part of your NI is in both figures. VAT is paid by the end user, and you can reclaim VAT suffered on your purchases where relevant. The wage bill for my small business is approximately 30% of turnover.
So my tax contribution equals 77% of my wage bill, effectively I'm getting my tax back to keep paying wages (in a very roundabout way)
The amount of tax we pay often hurts, but at a time like this, I have to feel proud of what we contribute into the public purse,
I have little sympathy for those who chose to opt out of paying tax, either a big company (Starbucks, Amazon, Facebook Etc) who pay virtually no corp tax but even less for the cash trader who is below the radar and pays nothing at all. The big ones do after all pay a lot of VAT and PAYE
Perhaps we should assess entitlement by past contribution.
One thing for certain, much of the black economy is going to suffer a "Come to Jesus" moment over the next few months
PAYE & NI are paid by people that I employ.
No business, no jobs, no tax, no helping hand.
I think this is called society
Edited by dartissimus on Friday 3rd April 21:58
Edited by dartissimus on Friday 3rd April 21:59
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