Contract - does this make sense?
Discussion
'After one month the Mooring is for a 12 month period. It is a rolling contract and requires a minimum of 6 months written notice by the owner/s of termination'
I've read that about 10 times and part 2 seems to contradict part 1... as from the second month the 12 month period would have started yet I can check out after 6...
I've read that about 10 times and part 2 seems to contradict part 1... as from the second month the 12 month period would have started yet I can check out after 6...
As I read it you have a 1 month grace period at the start of the contract after which you are committed for the whole of the first year. If you wish to leave at the end of the first year, and not commit to year 2, you need to give 6 months notice ie. at the end of the first 6 months.
Thereafter you can cancel the contract with 6 months notice at any time.
I would ask for clarification as there is some ambiguity in that wording.
Thereafter you can cancel the contract with 6 months notice at any time.
I would ask for clarification as there is some ambiguity in that wording.
Thanks for the replies. The conundrum lies in months 2-7, being able to give six month's notice and thus terminate the contract before it can be terminated...
In practice it's rather nonsensical anyway, as there's a waiting list for moorings so the marina is unlikely to lose out if notice is shorter.
I'm happy to commit to a year so it was a curiosity!
Now I have to work out why they want 2% of the value of my boat if I sell it... though again, I have no plans to.
In practice it's rather nonsensical anyway, as there's a waiting list for moorings so the marina is unlikely to lose out if notice is shorter.
I'm happy to commit to a year so it was a curiosity!
Now I have to work out why they want 2% of the value of my boat if I sell it... though again, I have no plans to.
ATG said:
Looks like they didn't bother to get a solicitor to draw up this contract, which is a clever move given how central this agreement is to their business.
I suspect it's a copy/paste/add extra bits job. I would hope that in the event of any disagreement things can be amicably defused by two human beings before it gets to citing small print.If you own a marina it's a seller's market; I think they're mostly concerned about keeping the place tidy and peaceful, which I'm entirely happy with.
Simpo Two said:
Thanks for the replies. The conundrum lies in months 2-7, being able to give six month's notice and thus terminate the contract before it can be terminated...
In practice it's rather nonsensical anyway, as there's a waiting list for moorings so the marina is unlikely to lose out if notice is shorter.
I'm happy to commit to a year so it was a curiosity!
Now I have to work out why they want 2% of the value of my boat if I sell it... though again, I have no plans to.
Eh? Which marina is this? Sounds like a small (family run?) outfit that have devised their own terms of business without consulting a solicitor.In practice it's rather nonsensical anyway, as there's a waiting list for moorings so the marina is unlikely to lose out if notice is shorter.
I'm happy to commit to a year so it was a curiosity!
Now I have to work out why they want 2% of the value of my boat if I sell it... though again, I have no plans to.
Anyway, I can't see how that clause is legally enforceable but I would be striking it out before signing their contract!
IJWS15 said:
Who is the “Owner”?
Really need to see the whole clause and not just an extract.
IANAL
The Owner is undefined but is by deduction me, ie the boat owner. It may be defined in Para 26 of the T&Cs which says 'The Ship and Boat builders (sic) National Federation Terms of Business (11th) Edition or such later edition as may be in force for the time being shall form an integral part of these Terms and Conditions'.Really need to see the whole clause and not just an extract.
IANAL
The line I quoted is not actually in the T&Cs but separate on the acceptance form to sign and return. It stands alone and is highlighted.
The mooring fee is payable annually, and one of the other details I've queried states: 'If the Marina terminates the Mooring we would not consider a refund to the Owner of the balance'. Which if it happened for no good reason (incredibly unlikely) would be worth a scrap I think!
Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 14th July 14:52
Simpo Two said:
I suspect it's a copy/paste/add extra bits job. I would hope that in the event of any disagreement things can be amicably defused by two human beings before it gets to citing small print.
If you own a marina it's a seller's market; I think they're mostly concerned about keeping the place tidy and peaceful, which I'm entirely happy with.
Indeed, and one of the best ways to avoid conflict is for everyone to be absolutely clear what they're agreeing to in the first place. It's not easy to write an unambiguous agreement, hence why it's worth getting a professional to do it.If you own a marina it's a seller's market; I think they're mostly concerned about keeping the place tidy and peaceful, which I'm entirely happy with.
By way of conclusion, I picked out the few points in the T&Cs that were ambiguous or seemed unreasonable, and sent them to the marina seeking clarification in a very polite e-mail. It was positively received and it was clear that the points were worst-case backstops for when they have a rogue customer. We had a good phone chat which revealed the 'real' position; I confirmed it by e-mail and attached a copy to the contract which I'll post today. They've never used the 2% clause but ask for £20ph if they show prospects around a boat for sale, which is fair.
So it was really a case of 'once bitten twice shy' and poorly written T&Cs.
So it was really a case of 'once bitten twice shy' and poorly written T&Cs.
pequod said:
Thanks for the update. What was the explanation regarding your original question regarding termination of the contract?
It's really two things mixed up. First, you get a probationary month where you can walk away if you don't like it. After that it's (officially) six months' notice - to give them time to find a replacement boat so they don't lose money on an empty berth. However as I pointed out, if the objective is simply to make sure the berth isn't vacant, then if they have a boat on the waiting list ready to move in it could be less.By '12 months' they mean that payment is annual. If they have to throw you out you don't get any refund for the unused period - mind you when they last did that it was for non-payment so no money to refund! If you've just paid for the year, but later want to leave or sell, you get the unused portion back.
It's very simple, but badly explained and gets complicated as it tries to cover every contingency.
OK, so quite a normal and straightforward intention but poorly written contract which, had you not ask the questions, would potentially leave you, the berth-holder, at the mercy of the company. You have raised the issue and attached an e-mail to the contract clarifying the 'intention' of certain ambiguous clauses but would everyone be so vigilant?
Hopefully the company will spend a little money with a professional to tidy up their t&c's!!?
Hopefully the company will spend a little money with a professional to tidy up their t&c's!!?
Simpo Two said:
The Owner is undefined but is by deduction me, ie the boat owner. It may be defined in Para 26 of the T&Cs which says 'The Ship and Boat builders (sic) National Federation Terms of Business (11th) Edition or such later edition as may be in force for the time being shall form an integral part of these Terms and Conditions'.
The line I quoted is not actually in the T&Cs but separate on the acceptance form to sign and return. It stands alone and is highlighted.
The mooring fee is payable annually, and one of the other details I've queried states: 'If the Marina terminates the Mooring we would not consider a refund to the Owner of the balance'. Which if it happened for no good reason (incredibly unlikely) would be worth a scrap I think!
I would still be concerned about this 'Owner' term. If this is a lease contract then it should specify 'lessor' and 'lessee', if a simple rental contract then they are quite clearly the owner, you are the renter.The line I quoted is not actually in the T&Cs but separate on the acceptance form to sign and return. It stands alone and is highlighted.
The mooring fee is payable annually, and one of the other details I've queried states: 'If the Marina terminates the Mooring we would not consider a refund to the Owner of the balance'. Which if it happened for no good reason (incredibly unlikely) would be worth a scrap I think!
Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 14th July 14:52
KevinCamaroSS said:
I would still be concerned about this 'Owner' term. If this is a lease contract then it should specify 'lessor' and 'lessee', if a simple rental contract then they are quite clearly the owner, you are the renter.
It appears to be a common clause on inland waterway marinas, maybe to prevent historical 'taking the pee' of the mooring/yard owners?I haven't come across this on coastal marina contracts but the average yacht owners are generally good eggs and respect the system!!
I can't vouch for the 'club swingers' though!!!
KevinCamaroSS said:
I would still be concerned about this 'Owner' term. If this is a lease contract then it should specify 'lessor' and 'lessee', if a simple rental contract then they are quite clearly the owner, you are the renter.
Well, there are two parties menioned in the contract. One is the Marina, the other is the Owner... so unless they are letting the space out to themselves I think we're OK on that one 
'Owners should have adequate insurance against all risks for their Craft and property...' etc.
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