Trademarking/copyrighting a logo?...
Discussion
ker is using the same term for a similar product/service on his website and even after a polite letter telling him to remove it still hasn’t! Yes, get it in the right category, or this can happen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
JPJPJP said:
Yes, get it in the right category, or this can happen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
How bad is that!https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
D1on said:
JPJPJP said:
Yes, get it in the right category, or this can happen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
How bad is that!https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
You mention Copyright in the title.
Copyright is automatically assigned to the creator of something. It's not something you have to (or can) register with anyone. So if you have created a logo (or paid someone to create your logo) then you already have copyright protection by default so long as you can prove original creation. People put the © symbol next to things to denote copyright but is actually a pointless gesture.
So if that fits the bill for you, then there's no need to pay to register trade mark which tends to protect names rather than logos - although can be both.
You can add a TM to denote that it's your 'Mark of Trade' without registration or cost though you have little legal protection. You can only use the ® once you've registered and only when you receive the Trade Mark Certificate which can take up to eight months but then you do have legal protection over the name...... but not always to the extent you think. Bear in mind that whilst its possible to do it yourself and register online, some Trade Mark Law Firms will charge fees in excess of £6k and the difference isn't (just) the greed of Lawyers.
I've seem some online services charge £175 for a trade mark application, When you consider that £170 has to be paid to the government, you have to question what level of service you're getting for five quid.
And unless you are going to pro-actively monitor and enforce your Trade Mark, then I would question wether it's worth it.
If you're looking at international trade marking, bear in mind that not all countries recognise it.
Before you pay anyone anything - worth a mooch round here: https://www.gov.uk/topic/intellectual-property/tra...
HTH
Copyright is automatically assigned to the creator of something. It's not something you have to (or can) register with anyone. So if you have created a logo (or paid someone to create your logo) then you already have copyright protection by default so long as you can prove original creation. People put the © symbol next to things to denote copyright but is actually a pointless gesture.
So if that fits the bill for you, then there's no need to pay to register trade mark which tends to protect names rather than logos - although can be both.
You can add a TM to denote that it's your 'Mark of Trade' without registration or cost though you have little legal protection. You can only use the ® once you've registered and only when you receive the Trade Mark Certificate which can take up to eight months but then you do have legal protection over the name...... but not always to the extent you think. Bear in mind that whilst its possible to do it yourself and register online, some Trade Mark Law Firms will charge fees in excess of £6k and the difference isn't (just) the greed of Lawyers.
I've seem some online services charge £175 for a trade mark application, When you consider that £170 has to be paid to the government, you have to question what level of service you're getting for five quid.
And unless you are going to pro-actively monitor and enforce your Trade Mark, then I would question wether it's worth it.
If you're looking at international trade marking, bear in mind that not all countries recognise it.
Before you pay anyone anything - worth a mooch round here: https://www.gov.uk/topic/intellectual-property/tra...
HTH
StevieBee said:
(or paid someone to create your logo) then you already have copyright...
One thing - paying somebody to do something does not automatically assign copyright. For example, a company can pay a photographer to take photos for them, but the tog retails copyright by default and the company uses the photos by licence. Ultimately it's down to what the two parties agree at the outset.OP - I had two logos over 25 years and didn't trademark them; never needed to. Had anyone copied them and done what I did I'd have got them under 'passing off'.
D1on said:
Basically i just want to trademark my company logo if possible?
Just to add then, that one of the benefits of Trade Marking is that the 'brand' becomes a more sellable asset down the line meaning you can exit from that particular activity but keep the business. Either way, prompted by Simpo's reminder, you need to establish ownership of copyright before you Trade Mark the logo otherwise you will be paying to protect something that belongs to someone else.Personally speaking, unless the above is on the cards or what you're doing is truly unique with a robust USP, I would save your money as you're protected under copyright law and common law regarding 'passing off'. Car makers have some of the most tightly enforced Trade Marks of any industry but that doesn't stop Chinese car makers ripping off European models and because China isn't a WIPO member, there's nothing the European manufacturers can do about it.
I'm a patent attorney and have some working knowledge of trade marks (although I don't handle trade marks directly - a trade mark attorney would handle them).
A trade mark protects any sign(s) used in the course of trade, such as a word and/or logo.
A trade mark can be used to prevent others from using the same or a confusingly similar mark in relation to the same or similar goods/services.
There are two types of trade mark protection: unregistered trade marks (passing off rights) and registered trade marks. Forget copyright.
A registered trade mark must be applied for (via UK Intellectual Property Office, UKIPO) and an official fee must be paid.
By contrast, an unregistered trade mark right arises automatically as a result of building up customer 'goodwill' by using the sign in the course of trade.
An unregistered trade mark protects the customer 'goodwill' of your business. If a third party damages that goodwill, as a result of some sort of misrepresentation (e.g., counterfeiting), then they have 'passed off' as your business.
By contrast, a registered trade mark protects the sign that's been registered (see Section 10 of Trade Marks Act 1994). The sign could be a word or logo, for example.
A person infringes a registered trade mark if he uses in the course of trade a sign which is identical with the trade mark in relation to goods or services which are identical with those for which it is registered.
Or, if the sign is similar (not identical) and/or the goods/services are similar (not identical), then they infringe to the extent that there exists a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public.
Registered trade marks are easier to enforce and potentially broader because a) you don't need to prove goodwill and damage to the goodwill, and b) the protection could be broader (regarding the similarity of the signs, the similarity of goods/services, and whole-country protection rather than potentially geographically-limited goodwill).
A trade mark, whether registered or not, needs to not be merely descriptive of the goods/services. A valid trade mark wants to be as 'fanciful' as possible. For example, 'Apple' in relation to computers is a valid trade mark because Apples have nothing to do with computers. Whereas 'Apple' in relation to a brand of apples would not be valid because it would be descriptive of the product. The UKIPO does examine registered trade mark applications for validity and will refuse the application if the mark is too descriptive.
If you apply for a registered trade mark, there are several stages.
Firstly, the UKIPO will examine the validity and object if they believe it is not valid, e.g., if it is too descriptive.
Secondly, the UKIPO may identify an existing registered trade mark that your mark is similar to. They may notify the holder of the earlier mark of your application, so that the third party can oppose the application within a limited-window opposition period.
Then the UKIPO will register the mark if it is valid and unopposed.
The drawback of the registered trade mark system is that there is an official fee.
You can file on your own via gov.uk. It will be easy to file, but it will only be correct if you know what you are doing. It is not the UKIPO's job to notify you if the mark you have applied for is not as broad as it could be, or if the classes of goods/services are not the most appropriate ones to your business.
A benefit of a trade mark attorney (costs mentioned in my previous post) is their informed opinion about how broadly to present the mark. There is a degree of choice (e.g., word/logo/colours or b&w). The attorney doesn't want to file something too generic/descriptive which would run into objections, but also doesn't want to file something that gives limited protection. Many private applicants don't realise that 'what you see is what you get'.
A trade mark attorney will also help to identify the best classes of goods/services to protect in the application, based on the current and predicted needs of the business. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes not. The classification system has its quirks. It's also important to think of what the business might sell 5 years in the future, not just what the business sells now.
A trade mark attorney may also be able to perform searches for existing marks to try and identify a potential conflict, before filing the application.
However, a trade mark attorney will charge money on top of the official fee - a few hundred pounds if the application is unopposed.
If you're going to use a trade mark attorney, get a proper one who gives a proper consultation. There are low cost platforms but if if it doesn't get you a proper consultation, then what value is being added compared to DIY?
If you have a registered trade mark, you can use (R) instead. This tells people that the mark is registered.
D1on said:
Thanks for the in depth replies.
Basically i just want to trademark my company logo if possible?
That's completely possible. Basically i just want to trademark my company logo if possible?
A trade mark protects any sign(s) used in the course of trade, such as a word and/or logo.
A trade mark can be used to prevent others from using the same or a confusingly similar mark in relation to the same or similar goods/services.
There are two types of trade mark protection: unregistered trade marks (passing off rights) and registered trade marks. Forget copyright.
A registered trade mark must be applied for (via UK Intellectual Property Office, UKIPO) and an official fee must be paid.
By contrast, an unregistered trade mark right arises automatically as a result of building up customer 'goodwill' by using the sign in the course of trade.
An unregistered trade mark protects the customer 'goodwill' of your business. If a third party damages that goodwill, as a result of some sort of misrepresentation (e.g., counterfeiting), then they have 'passed off' as your business.
By contrast, a registered trade mark protects the sign that's been registered (see Section 10 of Trade Marks Act 1994). The sign could be a word or logo, for example.
A person infringes a registered trade mark if he uses in the course of trade a sign which is identical with the trade mark in relation to goods or services which are identical with those for which it is registered.
Or, if the sign is similar (not identical) and/or the goods/services are similar (not identical), then they infringe to the extent that there exists a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public.
Registered trade marks are easier to enforce and potentially broader because a) you don't need to prove goodwill and damage to the goodwill, and b) the protection could be broader (regarding the similarity of the signs, the similarity of goods/services, and whole-country protection rather than potentially geographically-limited goodwill).
A trade mark, whether registered or not, needs to not be merely descriptive of the goods/services. A valid trade mark wants to be as 'fanciful' as possible. For example, 'Apple' in relation to computers is a valid trade mark because Apples have nothing to do with computers. Whereas 'Apple' in relation to a brand of apples would not be valid because it would be descriptive of the product. The UKIPO does examine registered trade mark applications for validity and will refuse the application if the mark is too descriptive.
If you apply for a registered trade mark, there are several stages.
Firstly, the UKIPO will examine the validity and object if they believe it is not valid, e.g., if it is too descriptive.
Secondly, the UKIPO may identify an existing registered trade mark that your mark is similar to. They may notify the holder of the earlier mark of your application, so that the third party can oppose the application within a limited-window opposition period.
Then the UKIPO will register the mark if it is valid and unopposed.
The drawback of the registered trade mark system is that there is an official fee.
You can file on your own via gov.uk. It will be easy to file, but it will only be correct if you know what you are doing. It is not the UKIPO's job to notify you if the mark you have applied for is not as broad as it could be, or if the classes of goods/services are not the most appropriate ones to your business.
A benefit of a trade mark attorney (costs mentioned in my previous post) is their informed opinion about how broadly to present the mark. There is a degree of choice (e.g., word/logo/colours or b&w). The attorney doesn't want to file something too generic/descriptive which would run into objections, but also doesn't want to file something that gives limited protection. Many private applicants don't realise that 'what you see is what you get'.
A trade mark attorney will also help to identify the best classes of goods/services to protect in the application, based on the current and predicted needs of the business. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes not. The classification system has its quirks. It's also important to think of what the business might sell 5 years in the future, not just what the business sells now.
A trade mark attorney may also be able to perform searches for existing marks to try and identify a potential conflict, before filing the application.
However, a trade mark attorney will charge money on top of the official fee - a few hundred pounds if the application is unopposed.
If you're going to use a trade mark attorney, get a proper one who gives a proper consultation. There are low cost platforms but if if it doesn't get you a proper consultation, then what value is being added compared to DIY?
D1on said:
Ah okay! Great help guys thanks!
So can i add anything to my logo that would deter anyone from potentially nicking it?
Anybody can use (TM). It doesn't grant you any protection but does send out a message that you take IP rights seriously.So can i add anything to my logo that would deter anyone from potentially nicking it?
If you have a registered trade mark, you can use (R) instead. This tells people that the mark is registered.
I did mine through an IP Attorney, cost about £400.
There are a couple of grants out there that you might want to consider, IP Audit (£2.5k) & IP Access (£5k). Have a word with you local business enterprise office regarding these. I used them to cover my IP costs last year.
Now, finding a licensee to take on your IP, that's a different matter.
There are a couple of grants out there that you might want to consider, IP Audit (£2.5k) & IP Access (£5k). Have a word with you local business enterprise office regarding these. I used them to cover my IP costs last year.
Now, finding a licensee to take on your IP, that's a different matter.
It's easy enough to do yourself but get your head around the different classes / costs involved.
LINK:
https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-apply
LINK:
https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-apply
Grrbang said:
I'm a patent attorney and have some working knowledge of trade marks (although I don't handle trade marks directly - a trade mark attorney would handle them).
A trade mark protects any sign(s) used in the course of trade, such as a word and/or logo.
A trade mark can be used to prevent others from using the same or a confusingly similar mark in relation to the same or similar goods/services.
There are two types of trade mark protection: unregistered trade marks (passing off rights) and registered trade marks. Forget copyright.
A registered trade mark must be applied for (via UK Intellectual Property Office, UKIPO) and an official fee must be paid.
By contrast, an unregistered trade mark right arises automatically as a result of building up customer 'goodwill' by using the sign in the course of trade.
An unregistered trade mark protects the customer 'goodwill' of your business. If a third party damages that goodwill, as a result of some sort of misrepresentation (e.g., counterfeiting), then they have 'passed off' as your business.
By contrast, a registered trade mark protects the sign that's been registered (see Section 10 of Trade Marks Act 1994). The sign could be a word or logo, for example.
A person infringes a registered trade mark if he uses in the course of trade a sign which is identical with the trade mark in relation to goods or services which are identical with those for which it is registered.
Or, if the sign is similar (not identical) and/or the goods/services are similar (not identical), then they infringe to the extent that there exists a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public.
Registered trade marks are easier to enforce and potentially broader because a) you don't need to prove goodwill and damage to the goodwill, and b) the protection could be broader (regarding the similarity of the signs, the similarity of goods/services, and whole-country protection rather than potentially geographically-limited goodwill).
A trade mark, whether registered or not, needs to not be merely descriptive of the goods/services. A valid trade mark wants to be as 'fanciful' as possible. For example, 'Apple' in relation to computers is a valid trade mark because Apples have nothing to do with computers. Whereas 'Apple' in relation to a brand of apples would not be valid because it would be descriptive of the product. The UKIPO does examine registered trade mark applications for validity and will refuse the application if the mark is too descriptive.
If you apply for a registered trade mark, there are several stages.
Firstly, the UKIPO will examine the validity and object if they believe it is not valid, e.g., if it is too descriptive.
Secondly, the UKIPO may identify an existing registered trade mark that your mark is similar to. They may notify the holder of the earlier mark of your application, so that the third party can oppose the application within a limited-window opposition period.
Then the UKIPO will register the mark if it is valid and unopposed.
The drawback of the registered trade mark system is that there is an official fee.
You can file on your own via gov.uk. It will be easy to file, but it will only be correct if you know what you are doing. It is not the UKIPO's job to notify you if the mark you have applied for is not as broad as it could be, or if the classes of goods/services are not the most appropriate ones to your business.
A benefit of a trade mark attorney (costs mentioned in my previous post) is their informed opinion about how broadly to present the mark. There is a degree of choice (e.g., word/logo/colours or b&w). The attorney doesn't want to file something too generic/descriptive which would run into objections, but also doesn't want to file something that gives limited protection. Many private applicants don't realise that 'what you see is what you get'.
A trade mark attorney will also help to identify the best classes of goods/services to protect in the application, based on the current and predicted needs of the business. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes not. The classification system has its quirks. It's also important to think of what the business might sell 5 years in the future, not just what the business sells now.
A trade mark attorney may also be able to perform searches for existing marks to try and identify a potential conflict, before filing the application.
However, a trade mark attorney will charge money on top of the official fee - a few hundred pounds if the application is unopposed.
If you're going to use a trade mark attorney, get a proper one who gives a proper consultation. There are low cost platforms but if if it doesn't get you a proper consultation, then what value is being added compared to DIY?
If you have a registered trade mark, you can use (R) instead. This tells people that the mark is registered.
That should be a PH sticky! Thanks for filling in the details Grrbang.D1on said:
Thanks for the in depth replies.
Basically i just want to trademark my company logo if possible?
That's completely possible. Basically i just want to trademark my company logo if possible?
A trade mark protects any sign(s) used in the course of trade, such as a word and/or logo.
A trade mark can be used to prevent others from using the same or a confusingly similar mark in relation to the same or similar goods/services.
There are two types of trade mark protection: unregistered trade marks (passing off rights) and registered trade marks. Forget copyright.
A registered trade mark must be applied for (via UK Intellectual Property Office, UKIPO) and an official fee must be paid.
By contrast, an unregistered trade mark right arises automatically as a result of building up customer 'goodwill' by using the sign in the course of trade.
An unregistered trade mark protects the customer 'goodwill' of your business. If a third party damages that goodwill, as a result of some sort of misrepresentation (e.g., counterfeiting), then they have 'passed off' as your business.
By contrast, a registered trade mark protects the sign that's been registered (see Section 10 of Trade Marks Act 1994). The sign could be a word or logo, for example.
A person infringes a registered trade mark if he uses in the course of trade a sign which is identical with the trade mark in relation to goods or services which are identical with those for which it is registered.
Or, if the sign is similar (not identical) and/or the goods/services are similar (not identical), then they infringe to the extent that there exists a likelihood of confusion on the part of the public.
Registered trade marks are easier to enforce and potentially broader because a) you don't need to prove goodwill and damage to the goodwill, and b) the protection could be broader (regarding the similarity of the signs, the similarity of goods/services, and whole-country protection rather than potentially geographically-limited goodwill).
A trade mark, whether registered or not, needs to not be merely descriptive of the goods/services. A valid trade mark wants to be as 'fanciful' as possible. For example, 'Apple' in relation to computers is a valid trade mark because Apples have nothing to do with computers. Whereas 'Apple' in relation to a brand of apples would not be valid because it would be descriptive of the product. The UKIPO does examine registered trade mark applications for validity and will refuse the application if the mark is too descriptive.
If you apply for a registered trade mark, there are several stages.
Firstly, the UKIPO will examine the validity and object if they believe it is not valid, e.g., if it is too descriptive.
Secondly, the UKIPO may identify an existing registered trade mark that your mark is similar to. They may notify the holder of the earlier mark of your application, so that the third party can oppose the application within a limited-window opposition period.
Then the UKIPO will register the mark if it is valid and unopposed.
The drawback of the registered trade mark system is that there is an official fee.
You can file on your own via gov.uk. It will be easy to file, but it will only be correct if you know what you are doing. It is not the UKIPO's job to notify you if the mark you have applied for is not as broad as it could be, or if the classes of goods/services are not the most appropriate ones to your business.
A benefit of a trade mark attorney (costs mentioned in my previous post) is their informed opinion about how broadly to present the mark. There is a degree of choice (e.g., word/logo/colours or b&w). The attorney doesn't want to file something too generic/descriptive which would run into objections, but also doesn't want to file something that gives limited protection. Many private applicants don't realise that 'what you see is what you get'.
A trade mark attorney will also help to identify the best classes of goods/services to protect in the application, based on the current and predicted needs of the business. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes not. The classification system has its quirks. It's also important to think of what the business might sell 5 years in the future, not just what the business sells now.
A trade mark attorney may also be able to perform searches for existing marks to try and identify a potential conflict, before filing the application.
However, a trade mark attorney will charge money on top of the official fee - a few hundred pounds if the application is unopposed.
If you're going to use a trade mark attorney, get a proper one who gives a proper consultation. There are low cost platforms but if if it doesn't get you a proper consultation, then what value is being added compared to DIY?
D1on said:
Ah okay! Great help guys thanks!
So can i add anything to my logo that would deter anyone from potentially nicking it?
Anybody can use (TM). It doesn't grant you any protection but does send out a message that you take IP rights seriously.So can i add anything to my logo that would deter anyone from potentially nicking it?
If you have a registered trade mark, you can use (R) instead. This tells people that the mark is registered.
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