Out door food business

[JeffreyD]

Not quite sure where to put this so I thought I'd try here

I live on an old farm on the edge of a village - the land borders a canal towpath, a bridleway/footpath that is a sort of nature trail and a village recreation ground. Our land has direct access on to these areas and they must get 100s of people walking past each day.

Some bright spark has managed to rent a couple of parking spaces off the council and set up a food stand in the recreation ground car park. It's a "burger van" type set up but selling indian style food. It's £5/6 quid for a breakfast roll (indian style) and £8 quid for a wrap with lamb and salad.
She is smashing it out of the park and is knocking the stuff out non stop 10 until 3 ish.

There is normally a pub open and the beer garden is packed every weekend and most summer nights.

That's the background -

so does anyone know if there is anything to stop me putting a pizza oven (mobile) on my bit of land nearby?
A BBQ hut on a another bit? post covid could I put some tables and chairs and knock out some coffee and cake?

Everything would be mobile and I'd outsource and charge a fee.

The land is greenbelt has no permitted development but it is entirely owned by us and we wouldn't be selling on public land (all the land is directly accessible from a public highway.

as a supplementary question If a mate and I wanted to do the BBQ side ourselves (yes lockdown is that boring) I understand we would need to register as a mobile catering business and that forms can be completed online. Anything nasty hidden away in that process?

Feels like I could be doing something useful and out of my comfort zone as my normal work is more or less done most days by 10 at the latest apart from the odd conference call.

thanks in advance

[CoolHands]

Maybe offer to sublet it to her and let her do all the work, and just pay you rent!

[JeffreyD]

CoolHands said:

Maybe offer to sublet it to her and let her do all the work, and just pay you rent!

she's got a medium term lease direct with the council.

There will be plenty of people looking for space to rent on an ad hoc basis.

The BBQ thing for me and my mate is more for something to do.

[EarlOfHazard]

I think you need to obtain some certificates if handling/cooking food and selling to the public. Other than that I can't see any issue..

Some of your questions might be answered here: https://www.ncass.org.uk/resources/start-and-run-a...

[ReverendCounter]

Don't forget to add soup to your menu for those colder days - in a bio friendly paper container https://www.cater4you.co.uk/acatalog/8oz-bio-paper...

And maybe try selling some little bags of grain for childlings to feed ducks/swans with. Could be a decent mark up.

[JeffreyD]

Thanks for the replies

[Saleen836]

My neighbours a few doors up have set up a food stall in their front garden for Friday & Saturday evenings selling jerk chicken and jerk pork, don't know what hoops they had to jump through to get started but then even have a facebook page

[skwdenyer]

ReverendCounter said:

Don't forget to add soup to your menu for those colder days - in a bio friendly paper container https://www.cater4you.co.uk/acatalog/8oz-bio-paper...

And maybe try selling some little bags of grain for childlings to feed ducks/swans with. Could be a decent mark up.

Those "compostable" PLA-coated containers are great PR, but not actually compostable! Read the small print: "they are compostable in commercial compost facilities" - the necessary biological conditions don't exist naturally, so if these are put in regular landfill they won't compost.

In terms of passing trade on cold days, I'd strongly consider jacket potatoes - easy to make, can be kept warm for quite a long time (so no supply-side issues), and have fairly high perceived value.

[ReverendCounter]

skwdenyer said:

Those "compostable" PLA-coated containers are great PR, but not actually compostable! ...

Doh..down at the first hurdle! Was trying to think of other hot food that could be easy to make, good margins, but they all seem to need some kind of container. Wraps, maybe? Just a thought.

[skwdenyer]

ReverendCounter said:

skwdenyer said:

Those "compostable" PLA-coated containers are great PR, but not actually compostable! ...

Doh..down at the first hurdle! Was trying to think of other hot food that could be easy to make, good margins, but they all seem to need some kind of container. Wraps, maybe? Just a thought.

Very hard to sell food without a wrapping / container. So that makes you everyone’s enemy when the wrappers / containers end up in the canal or beside the towpath.

(Eco rabbit hole bit coming up...)

The hardest thing to make work are liquids. Those containers need a waterproof coating, which is the part that makes it hard for them to break down.

Ice cream cones great for that in the summer, of course

If we were in India, I’d suggest using pineapple leaves as wraps for things like potatoes, but they’re not so readily available in the UK

There is a solution on the horizon - Pinyapel from the Philippines, a paper made from waste pineapple leaves that’s naturally waterproof yet breaks down in the environment far *faster* than conventional (non-coated) paper products. But it is very new and not really yet at scale.

If you want to avoid planning hassle, I suspect you’re going to think very carefully about litter / waste - not because it is a planning issue itself, but because it tends to get people complaining about you!

[JeffreyD]

skwdenyer said:

Very hard to sell food without a wrapping / container. So that makes you everyone’s enemy when the wrappers / containers end up in the canal or beside the towpath.

(Eco rabbit hole bit coming up...)

The hardest thing to make work are liquids. Those containers need a waterproof coating, which is the part that makes it hard for them to break down.

Ice cream cones great for that in the summer, of course

If we were in India, I’d suggest using pineapple leaves as wraps for things like potatoes, but they’re not so readily available in the UK

There is a solution on the horizon - Pinyapel from the Philippines, a paper made from waste pineapple leaves that’s naturally waterproof yet breaks down in the environment far *faster* than conventional (non-coated) paper products. But it is very new and not really yet at scale.

If you want to avoid planning hassle, I suspect you’re going to think very carefully about litter / waste - not because it is a planning issue itself, but because it tends to get people complaining about you!

Agree about the waste - the initial question was really from a planning perspective. I'm not sure what they could really do to stop us if we cleared up every night.

I reckon I have 4 or 5 spots that could work with a bit a facebook advertising and some A-boards pointing the way.

It's fairly obviously against planning rules, but in reality if you were doing it a couple of times a week you'd be gone before the inspector got there and if they did get as far as an injunction we wouldn't have paid for any fixtures and fittings.

I'd be entitled to put some chairs and stuff in my wood anyway.

I am going to try and find out how much someone pays for a pitch and if they do fixed fee or turnover based.

My only experience of this is doing a mini festival a few years ago and the end rental was based on the ticket sales.

[skwdenyer]

JeffreyD said:

Agree about the waste - the initial question was really from a planning perspective. I'm not sure what they could really do to stop us if we cleared up every night.

I reckon I have 4 or 5 spots that could work with a bit a facebook advertising and some A-boards pointing the way.

It's fairly obviously against planning rules, but in reality if you were doing it a couple of times a week you'd be gone before the inspector got there and if they did get as far as an injunction we wouldn't have paid for any fixtures and fittings.

I'd be entitled to put some chairs and stuff in my wood anyway.

I am going to try and find out how much someone pays for a pitch and if they do fixed fee or turnover based.

My only experience of this is doing a mini festival a few years ago and the end rental was based on the ticket sales.

I’d just be careful that whatever you do “under the radar” doesn’t leave you hit with a fine & cleanup cost for any litter. Given the location you’ve talked about, I could see this being a non-zero risk. I’d make sure that anyone you rent to has a contract that passes that buck onto them, and that they’re not just an “empty shell” company. You can’t stop yourself being targeted, but you can protect yourself a little bit.

[JeffreyD]

skwdenyer said:

I’d just be careful that whatever you do “under the radar” doesn’t leave you hit with a fine & cleanup cost for any litter. Given the location you’ve talked about, I could see this being a non-zero risk. I’d make sure that anyone you rent to has a contract that passes that buck onto them, and that they’re not just an “empty shell” company. You can’t stop yourself being targeted, but you can protect yourself a little bit.

Yes I think you are right.
Maybe I can offset any litter against all the bags of dog st that get lobbed into the wood!

I keep flip-flopping as I'm not sure I want the hassle of dealing with it. The original idea was to let a couple I know flog pizzas and for me and my mate to get a Argentinian style BBQ going. worst case scenario we'd have to eat it all if no one came.
But having seen how much this van is doing it's made me think again.


Thanks for the input.

[theguvernor15]

Loads of people doing this at the minute (setting up outdoor take-aways/vans etc.), many of them are being done on a shoe-string.
(We supply the commercial catering equipment trade).

I know of someone selling pizza from their house via a Fbook page & they're making more in the evenings than they do during the day & all they're doing is buying the ingredients, topping a frozen base & cooking them.

I do have a friend who's got an all singing all dancing pizza van he's bought & kitted out & he travels around the local area, he spent a lot of money doing it properly & is doing 'quality', rather than quantity, he has a pre-determined amount of pizzas he'll sell a night & he sells out pre-orders every night.

I think other than registering as a food business, getting the insurance, the only thing you actually need is a food hygiene certificate, which is attainable fairly cheaply by doing an online course.

There's definitely money to be made from it, how much so once everything opens up again i don't know.

[DozyGit]

You have to be incredibly naive to think you will run this without any major issues especially as a land owner;
1. The council are renting to a legally operating competitor and you assume they will roll over and let you take their business. You will get a court injunction and if you operate illegally you will end up behind bars.
2. If some smart person falls ill, be ready to sell the land to pay compensation and fines - an important difference between a truly poor person and you.
3. If someone dies due to food poisoning what do you plan to do with your illegally operating business, who will insure you? Your home insurance won’t and no muppet will insure you to run a food business illegally.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

DozyGit said:

You have to be incredibly naive to think you will run this without any major issues especially as a land owner;
1. The council are renting to a legally operating competitor and you assume they will roll over and let you take their business. You will get a court injunction and if you operate illegally you will end up behind bars.
2. If some smart person falls ill, be ready to sell the land to pay compensation and fines - an important difference between a truly poor person and you.
3. If someone dies due to food poisoning what do you plan to do with your illegally operating business, who will insure you? Your home insurance won’t and no muppet will insure you to run a food business illegally.

Set up a limited company and buy insurance.

[DozyGit]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Set up a limited company and buy insurance.

A limited company doesn’t limit your liability for illegal activities. If someone dies trust me no limited company will protect you. If it were that simple drug dealing can be done via limited companies. You are only protected for a narrow margin of things.

Yes a lot of builders use it for instance, but if you are smart with deep pockets you can sue the builder as a person for emotional harm and wring them dry - uk hasn’t still caught up.

[JeffreyD]

I'll try my best not to kill anyone.

Or if I do I'll try and pick a retired old fart with no kids. Or a maybe a teenager who hasn't got any dependants.

Anyway it's cheaper to kill them to make them sick enough to be brain damaged or something.
That gets really expensive.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

DozyGit said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Set up a limited company and buy insurance.

A limited company doesn’t limit your liability for illegal activities. If someone dies trust me no limited company will protect you. If it were that simple drug dealing can be done via limited companies. You are only protected for a narrow margin of things.

Yes a lot of builders use it for instance, but if you are smart with deep pockets you can sue the builder as a person for emotional harm and wring them dry - uk hasn’t still caught up.

Err, ok then.

[theguvernor15]

Dozygit is living up to his name.