Discussion
Yo!
I want to start a CNC company and am currently in the planning stages.
I design and have made a growing number of CNC machined products and there are bucket loads more in the pipeline, and I need to find that point where it is financially viable to bring it in-house. Having never owned or run CNC machines previously I expect there is a whole host of items and costs that I have not accounted for, and things such as the extra stress of dealing with it which also has it's own personal value.
The plan is to purchase a twin spindle Lathe with Y axis, live tooling and bar feed, and also a Mill with a 4th axis. We've had quotes for these machines so far. I have taken into consideration the following but I expect there is something I am missing, for those people who started out what else did you end up buying that you hadn't originally accounted for?
Additional hardware:
Compressor.
Forklift.
Parts cleaner and drier.
Racking.
Measuring bench and equipment.
Packing area and equipment.
Off machine programming software.
Monthly costs for the following:
Work holding.
Tooling.
Coolant.
Warranty.
Staff.
Anything else you think is worth looking into?
Cheers!
I want to start a CNC company and am currently in the planning stages.
I design and have made a growing number of CNC machined products and there are bucket loads more in the pipeline, and I need to find that point where it is financially viable to bring it in-house. Having never owned or run CNC machines previously I expect there is a whole host of items and costs that I have not accounted for, and things such as the extra stress of dealing with it which also has it's own personal value.
The plan is to purchase a twin spindle Lathe with Y axis, live tooling and bar feed, and also a Mill with a 4th axis. We've had quotes for these machines so far. I have taken into consideration the following but I expect there is something I am missing, for those people who started out what else did you end up buying that you hadn't originally accounted for?
Additional hardware:
Compressor.
Forklift.
Parts cleaner and drier.
Racking.
Measuring bench and equipment.
Packing area and equipment.
Off machine programming software.
Monthly costs for the following:
Work holding.
Tooling.
Coolant.
Warranty.
Staff.
Anything else you think is worth looking into?
Cheers!
Not sure what you are making but 'measuring equipment' can be very expensive. Minimum of some camera based system up to a full on CMM in a temp controlled room.
In my experience, whatever your intentions, you won't be all CNC, you'll need a lathe for making tools and fixtures, deburring, etc. Something like a Hardinge HLV. A bigger lathe is handy, too. You'll surprised how often ou have to make or modify something that's broken or doesn't fit.
A pedestal drill of some sort is a necessity, imo.
And a Bridgeport mill in the corner is another handy thing to have.
In my experience, whatever your intentions, you won't be all CNC, you'll need a lathe for making tools and fixtures, deburring, etc. Something like a Hardinge HLV. A bigger lathe is handy, too. You'll surprised how often ou have to make or modify something that's broken or doesn't fit.
A pedestal drill of some sort is a necessity, imo.
And a Bridgeport mill in the corner is another handy thing to have.
Edited by Tim O on Sunday 25th July 20:52
Cheers for the replies! We have so far looked at XYZ and Mazak machines. I was most impressed by Mazak but obviously are on the more expensive side.
99% of everything is aluminium parts and would prefer to stick with just the one material.
Regarding measuring equipment we already have a creaform laser scanner we use for reverse engineering, so just need to invest in a granite / flat table and some more basic equipment.
This year alone I think we are projected to spend approx. 80-100k on CNC parts for our own products, let alone what we could potentially get from offering it as a service, I want to get to the point where our own products cover the overheads and we can keep producing more and also cherry pick what comes through the door.
99% of everything is aluminium parts and would prefer to stick with just the one material.
Regarding measuring equipment we already have a creaform laser scanner we use for reverse engineering, so just need to invest in a granite / flat table and some more basic equipment.
This year alone I think we are projected to spend approx. 80-100k on CNC parts for our own products, let alone what we could potentially get from offering it as a service, I want to get to the point where our own products cover the overheads and we can keep producing more and also cherry pick what comes through the door.
GnuBee said:
Legacywr said:
We have a lot of Mazaks, they’re the best machines for a subcon machine shop like ours.
How precise is your work? Only I have some granite surface tables that are out of calibration, if they’re any good to you?
Sniping here -> what size tables....?How precise is your work? Only I have some granite surface tables that are out of calibration, if they’re any good to you?
If you are already subcontracting out your existing machining requirements then you have an ideal opportunity t do some spying benchmarking of your existing supply base.
I would suggest doing a supplier survey to collect some data on these things among the supplier base you have and then do a walk through survey audit of the top 2 or 3. Take someone else with you to have extra eyes. I do supplier selection for a large multinational so let me know if you want any audit check lists or similar to help with preparation.
I also do a lot with metrology and one of my most common concerns with small shops if not having the inspection capability. Parts with features positioned from more that 2 locations should be drafted using position and that pushes you towards a CMM which are pricy but not the answer to everything (another gripe being the inability to do first principle measurement). Fine tolerance holes also need to be over checked with first principles (plug,bore Mike or air gauge) as most CMMs are not good enough.
As mentioned above, it all comes down to the size, shape and complexity you are looking to make and markets you serve.
Other things to consider: fire and liability insurance will go up with a machine shop and there will be environmental hoop to jump through around fluid storage, use and disposal. If you have a formal quality management system then it will need a major overhaul.
I would suggest doing a supplier survey to collect some data on these things among the supplier base you have and then do a walk through survey audit of the top 2 or 3. Take someone else with you to have extra eyes. I do supplier selection for a large multinational so let me know if you want any audit check lists or similar to help with preparation.
I also do a lot with metrology and one of my most common concerns with small shops if not having the inspection capability. Parts with features positioned from more that 2 locations should be drafted using position and that pushes you towards a CMM which are pricy but not the answer to everything (another gripe being the inability to do first principle measurement). Fine tolerance holes also need to be over checked with first principles (plug,bore Mike or air gauge) as most CMMs are not good enough.
As mentioned above, it all comes down to the size, shape and complexity you are looking to make and markets you serve.
Other things to consider: fire and liability insurance will go up with a machine shop and there will be environmental hoop to jump through around fluid storage, use and disposal. If you have a formal quality management system then it will need a major overhaul.
If you already have the site, then check what your planning permission allows (noise, vibration, lights on, traffic coming and going). Even if night and weekend working isn't in your plans at the moment, after a machine breakdown or when a well-paying urgent job comes along, you might decide otherwise. One place I worked was not allowed the factory doors open at night due to the noise, so on warm summer it was like an oven.
If you're getting your inspection equipment calibrated off-site, consider how you will cope whilst its not there? Also when quoting for jobs, either make sure your existing inspection equipment will measure it accurately enough, or factor in buying or renting appropriate equipment for that particular job.
If you're getting your inspection equipment calibrated off-site, consider how you will cope whilst its not there? Also when quoting for jobs, either make sure your existing inspection equipment will measure it accurately enough, or factor in buying or renting appropriate equipment for that particular job.
Mudgey said:
....
This year alone I think we are projected to spend approx. 80-100k on CNC parts for our own products, let alone what we could potentially get from offering it as a service, I want to get to the point where our own products cover the overheads and we can keep producing more and also cherry pick what comes through the door.
You'll need a couple of setter/operator/programmers who'll cost about £40k each inc pension and NI etc before any of the other costs. I really think you'd be better off managing your supplier base to ensure you're getting good value from them.This year alone I think we are projected to spend approx. 80-100k on CNC parts for our own products, let alone what we could potentially get from offering it as a service, I want to get to the point where our own products cover the overheads and we can keep producing more and also cherry pick what comes through the door.
We have a new Mazak Quick Turn 250MSY, with an extended bed, barfed, fully automatic up to 80mm diameter, with every extra possible.
A fantastic machine that cost the same as a house, it's taken us months to become competent, we make our own parts but have a fair bit of capacity.
Happy to offer a competitive sub-contract service if it helps?
A fantastic machine that cost the same as a house, it's taken us months to become competent, we make our own parts but have a fair bit of capacity.
Happy to offer a competitive sub-contract service if it helps?
Straight off the top of my head
QA
Paperwork systems – there are too many places which ship the goods and then ship the paperwork (that’s wrong) 2 or 3 weeks later, usually full of concessions that are required. I can assure you - this will annoy your customers intensely. Increasingly companies are wise to this, and the paperwork must arrive BEFORE the product does, or the truck/van doesn’t even get in the gate.
Calibration – it may be difficult to get work off companies for some industries unless you can demonstrably prove that all your gear is in calibration.
Are your systems good enough to make sure…
a) the right material comes in – this can be a major problem, 304 arriving instead of 316, wrong annealed state of aluminium, tin bronze instead of lead bronze etc…
and
b) gets made into the right parts that go out.
Wouldn’t be the first machine shop to make something in the wrong material.
Workshop cleaning equipment
Insurance – if you are scanning in parts, and doing some reverse engineering then making them, who’s product liability insurance are you relying upon? I’ve tripped up a supplier who was trying their luck on this one… unbelievable but there you go…
Wear and tear and servicing costs
Get quotes on the parts you are asked to make from local suppliers, your competition, then try Eastern Europe, then anywhere else and then the Far East. You need to know what you are up against.
As others have said, can you keep the machines fed, and get paid for the work you do?
Are you expecting your customers to be good customers, do they all pay on time, or are they a monumental pain in the back side? Suppliers sometimes tell customers to get lost as they cause so much hassle for them. A project I’m doing at work was nearly sunk last week as someone in purchasing was trying it on with “The Big I am” with a supplier who have bent over backwards to keep us supplied with technical data.
Have you worked out what your cost out rate for each machine/chunk of labour is? Your competitors will have done. I can get x-y-z milling capacity @ £35/hr. 4 axis @ £50/hr and 5 axis @ £60/hr
If the parts which you willingly quoted for ask for a part number to be placed in a certain position in a certain manner, can you do that? We’ve had parts that requested the part number and other data to be lasered on. It came back all written down in pen on a tag! I would say this is at least a quarter of low quantity production on concession paperwork…
Web site – what do your competitors do? What are you going to let your website handle commercially?
.....Would prefer to stick to the one material? .....
Why? The world is going stainless, and the big growth market here in the UK for capacity is nuclear. Aerospace is dying on its arse, R-R are on an enforced 2 week unpaid shut down…. That’s a lot of suppliers with experience in high quality aluminium production capacity wanting something to do.
Can you afford to work in a market which you make 1000’s off or just 2 off? A previous place that designed and made their own stuff wouldn’t touch any order over 200 per annum, or any project which would expose them to more than 15% risk i.e., more than 15% of their current turnover. So, although the automotive industry was banging on the door for equipment for very high-pressure hydrogen supply. They wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.
Are you going to run a sales effort or plan to? Make sure sales know what service of yours they are actually selling…
Looking at what you do on your web site, I would suggest a way forward is for your selves to do the reverse engineering, prototyping and low quantity production, which is what the UK is actually rather good at. Suggest design changes (this is where the money is) to make it better/cheaper/quicker then offer to organise getting the parts made in bulk, if that’s what’s required, somewhere else.
QA
Paperwork systems – there are too many places which ship the goods and then ship the paperwork (that’s wrong) 2 or 3 weeks later, usually full of concessions that are required. I can assure you - this will annoy your customers intensely. Increasingly companies are wise to this, and the paperwork must arrive BEFORE the product does, or the truck/van doesn’t even get in the gate.
Calibration – it may be difficult to get work off companies for some industries unless you can demonstrably prove that all your gear is in calibration.
Are your systems good enough to make sure…
a) the right material comes in – this can be a major problem, 304 arriving instead of 316, wrong annealed state of aluminium, tin bronze instead of lead bronze etc…
and
b) gets made into the right parts that go out.
Wouldn’t be the first machine shop to make something in the wrong material.
Workshop cleaning equipment
Insurance – if you are scanning in parts, and doing some reverse engineering then making them, who’s product liability insurance are you relying upon? I’ve tripped up a supplier who was trying their luck on this one… unbelievable but there you go…
Wear and tear and servicing costs
Get quotes on the parts you are asked to make from local suppliers, your competition, then try Eastern Europe, then anywhere else and then the Far East. You need to know what you are up against.
As others have said, can you keep the machines fed, and get paid for the work you do?
Are you expecting your customers to be good customers, do they all pay on time, or are they a monumental pain in the back side? Suppliers sometimes tell customers to get lost as they cause so much hassle for them. A project I’m doing at work was nearly sunk last week as someone in purchasing was trying it on with “The Big I am” with a supplier who have bent over backwards to keep us supplied with technical data.
Have you worked out what your cost out rate for each machine/chunk of labour is? Your competitors will have done. I can get x-y-z milling capacity @ £35/hr. 4 axis @ £50/hr and 5 axis @ £60/hr
If the parts which you willingly quoted for ask for a part number to be placed in a certain position in a certain manner, can you do that? We’ve had parts that requested the part number and other data to be lasered on. It came back all written down in pen on a tag! I would say this is at least a quarter of low quantity production on concession paperwork…
Web site – what do your competitors do? What are you going to let your website handle commercially?
.....Would prefer to stick to the one material? .....
Why? The world is going stainless, and the big growth market here in the UK for capacity is nuclear. Aerospace is dying on its arse, R-R are on an enforced 2 week unpaid shut down…. That’s a lot of suppliers with experience in high quality aluminium production capacity wanting something to do.
Can you afford to work in a market which you make 1000’s off or just 2 off? A previous place that designed and made their own stuff wouldn’t touch any order over 200 per annum, or any project which would expose them to more than 15% risk i.e., more than 15% of their current turnover. So, although the automotive industry was banging on the door for equipment for very high-pressure hydrogen supply. They wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.
Are you going to run a sales effort or plan to? Make sure sales know what service of yours they are actually selling…
Looking at what you do on your web site, I would suggest a way forward is for your selves to do the reverse engineering, prototyping and low quantity production, which is what the UK is actually rather good at. Suggest design changes (this is where the money is) to make it better/cheaper/quicker then offer to organise getting the parts made in bulk, if that’s what’s required, somewhere else.
classicaholic said:
If you are only buying in 100k worth of machining, if that includes the materials as well then keep subbing it out, get at least 2 good suppliers and save the costs of employing more people, thats the really expensive bit!
Id agree, plus, you don’t have to pay for scrapped parts.Mudgey said:
Cheers for the replies! We have so far looked at XYZ and Mazak machines. I was most impressed by Mazak but obviously are on the more expensive side.
We historically always bought Japanese machines for the quality and reliabilty but about 5/6 years ago we bought an XYZ mini mill as the Jap prices had shot up. It has a Taiwanese carcass but all Siemens electrics/electronics. We are now on 6 XYZ machines including a five axis lathe. We've also linked a cobot onto the original mini mill so it can work all on its own....I have been very surprised by the reliability and the speed is almost as good as the jap machines but at a much lower cost.
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff