Views on patents?
Discussion
I'm a long term cynic on patents - expensive to write, expensive to defend, limited value.
However... I have a product that appears to be innovative and patentable (early searches show nothing similar). I cannot afford to full develop it myself (fractions of a million required to get there), so would need to find an investor or partner to go beyond the current proof of concept version to a product prototype.
A patent theoretically shows it is a unique bit of IP and helps identify ownership when discussing this with potential investors and companies in the relevant space. So... is it suddenly worth it? Patent lawyers suggest 2K upwards for writing a specification for an initial application, which is still a lot of money for something that could (yet) go nowhere.
Thoughts?
(Product is a physical computing device with potential in a range of applications, from entertainment, through education to industry).
However... I have a product that appears to be innovative and patentable (early searches show nothing similar). I cannot afford to full develop it myself (fractions of a million required to get there), so would need to find an investor or partner to go beyond the current proof of concept version to a product prototype.
A patent theoretically shows it is a unique bit of IP and helps identify ownership when discussing this with potential investors and companies in the relevant space. So... is it suddenly worth it? Patent lawyers suggest 2K upwards for writing a specification for an initial application, which is still a lot of money for something that could (yet) go nowhere.
Thoughts?
(Product is a physical computing device with potential in a range of applications, from entertainment, through education to industry).
I'm currently going through the patent process, I'm at patent pending stage and working on licensing my idea out.
A patent grants you a legal monopoly to your idea and gives you the ability to monetise it or exploit it. If I hadn't taken out the patent protection then I would not be able to license out my idea, anyone could use it without my permission and it would effectively be public domain.
There have been a number of discussions on here about patents and how they are not worth the paper they are written on if you can't afford to enforce your rights which can be expensive. However, there are insurance policies that you can take out that provide cover against infringers (people or companies who want to use your idea without paying you) and also against infringement claims against you. This is my biggest cost at the moment but for me it's worth it as I have the ability to enforce my rights should the need arise.
Having a patent pending status makes you more investable, it shows that you own your idea or at least there is a strong chance that you will own your idea. Without it, there is nothing to stop others using your idea so ultimately you are far less investable. If you go down this route I suggest you look at SEIS which allows your investors to claim 50% tax relief on their investment and benefit from reduced capital gains so it is an attractive option.
Ultimately the best thing to do is contact a number of Patent Attorneys in your area, many will give you an hour for free and will advise you on how best to proceed.
For funding I suggest you get in contact with your local Business Enterprise office and look into the IP Audit Grant. This is a £2.5k grant that will give you a professional patent search. If this comes back clean then you again become more attractive to investors as your risk has reduced significantly and you are more likely to succeed in your application.
After this you can apply for the IP Access Grant, this will pay for your patent application up to £5k.
Lots of info there in a bit of a brain dump but I hope you can pick something useful out of it.
Also happy to discuss via pm if you like.
A patent grants you a legal monopoly to your idea and gives you the ability to monetise it or exploit it. If I hadn't taken out the patent protection then I would not be able to license out my idea, anyone could use it without my permission and it would effectively be public domain.
There have been a number of discussions on here about patents and how they are not worth the paper they are written on if you can't afford to enforce your rights which can be expensive. However, there are insurance policies that you can take out that provide cover against infringers (people or companies who want to use your idea without paying you) and also against infringement claims against you. This is my biggest cost at the moment but for me it's worth it as I have the ability to enforce my rights should the need arise.
Having a patent pending status makes you more investable, it shows that you own your idea or at least there is a strong chance that you will own your idea. Without it, there is nothing to stop others using your idea so ultimately you are far less investable. If you go down this route I suggest you look at SEIS which allows your investors to claim 50% tax relief on their investment and benefit from reduced capital gains so it is an attractive option.
Ultimately the best thing to do is contact a number of Patent Attorneys in your area, many will give you an hour for free and will advise you on how best to proceed.
For funding I suggest you get in contact with your local Business Enterprise office and look into the IP Audit Grant. This is a £2.5k grant that will give you a professional patent search. If this comes back clean then you again become more attractive to investors as your risk has reduced significantly and you are more likely to succeed in your application.
After this you can apply for the IP Access Grant, this will pay for your patent application up to £5k.
Lots of info there in a bit of a brain dump but I hope you can pick something useful out of it.
Also happy to discuss via pm if you like.
Your cynicism is justified.
I had some good chats with honest patent attorneys over the years. It’s high stakes gambling. Since then I’ve joined a company in Germany who pay me to invent, then are legally obliged to pay me a certain percentage of the sales from my inventions. Even though they own the patent, I’m still recognised as the inventor. I’m not sure how it works in the UK, whether that option is open to you?
I had some good chats with honest patent attorneys over the years. It’s high stakes gambling. Since then I’ve joined a company in Germany who pay me to invent, then are legally obliged to pay me a certain percentage of the sales from my inventions. Even though they own the patent, I’m still recognised as the inventor. I’m not sure how it works in the UK, whether that option is open to you?
Tuna said:
I'm a long term cynic on patents - expensive to write, expensive to defend, limited value.
However... I have a product that appears to be innovative and patentable (early searches show nothing similar). I cannot afford to full develop it myself (fractions of a million required to get there), so would need to find an investor or partner to go beyond the current proof of concept version to a product prototype.
A patent theoretically shows it is a unique bit of IP and helps identify ownership when discussing this with potential investors and companies in the relevant space. So... is it suddenly worth it? Patent lawyers suggest 2K upwards for writing a specification for an initial application, which is still a lot of money for something that could (yet) go nowhere.
Thoughts?
(Product is a physical computing device with potential in a range of applications, from entertainment, through education to industry).
We registered 3 patents in 2007, by 2010 we felt there had been infringement and this was ongoing. The Patent Attorney who dealt with it initially despite filling our heads with thoughts of easy loot, ended up basically wibbling and finding every reason not to get into a fight. I realised that the Patent stopped a few competitors from copying us but determined a**holes with deep pockets just did what they wanted.However... I have a product that appears to be innovative and patentable (early searches show nothing similar). I cannot afford to full develop it myself (fractions of a million required to get there), so would need to find an investor or partner to go beyond the current proof of concept version to a product prototype.
A patent theoretically shows it is a unique bit of IP and helps identify ownership when discussing this with potential investors and companies in the relevant space. So... is it suddenly worth it? Patent lawyers suggest 2K upwards for writing a specification for an initial application, which is still a lot of money for something that could (yet) go nowhere.
Thoughts?
(Product is a physical computing device with potential in a range of applications, from entertainment, through education to industry).
I think there are a few specialist firms now who'll bring a case but back then that wasn't possible.
If it's cheap, it looks good on brochures and stops a bit of copying but other than that a bit of a paper tiger for a small business ( at least in 2010)
Yeah,
I'm not expecting a patent to protect me from copycats - or to be something I can enforce myself. My understanding is I can make an initial application that gives me ~12 months before a full (and much more expensive) application is necessary.
That *could* give me enough time to approach investors, collaborators or partners with some evidence that I have something that (a) is novel and (b) has some IP protection that they could enforce. My ideal here is to grow out a separate business (or just straight license it out), rather than doing everything myself.
So this is really about having something to negotiate over rather than trying to protect an existing business. Not sure if that makes much of a difference, but it seems that a lot of people approach patents expecting them to ring-fence a product that is being sold.
I'm not expecting a patent to protect me from copycats - or to be something I can enforce myself. My understanding is I can make an initial application that gives me ~12 months before a full (and much more expensive) application is necessary.
That *could* give me enough time to approach investors, collaborators or partners with some evidence that I have something that (a) is novel and (b) has some IP protection that they could enforce. My ideal here is to grow out a separate business (or just straight license it out), rather than doing everything myself.
So this is really about having something to negotiate over rather than trying to protect an existing business. Not sure if that makes much of a difference, but it seems that a lot of people approach patents expecting them to ring-fence a product that is being sold.
Tuna said:
Yeah,
I'm not expecting a patent to protect me from copycats - or to be something I can enforce myself. My understanding is I can make an initial application that gives me ~12 months before a full (and much more expensive) application is necessary.
Look into IP insurance, this increases the depth of your pockets and indicates you take your IP rights seriously. Then look at finding a commercial partner probably already established in the market space who will want to enforce their position should a competitor attempt to get cute.I'm not expecting a patent to protect me from copycats - or to be something I can enforce myself. My understanding is I can make an initial application that gives me ~12 months before a full (and much more expensive) application is necessary.
You ought to be able to get to patent pending staus for 500 of your pounds and having skin in the game helps when it comes to seeking investment.
HTH
Tuna said:
Yeah,
I'm not expecting a patent to protect me from copycats - or to be something I can enforce myself. My understanding is I can make an initial application that gives me ~12 months before a full (and much more expensive) application is necessary.
That *could* give me enough time to approach investors, collaborators or partners with some evidence that I have something that (a) is novel and (b) has some IP protection that they could enforce. My ideal here is to grow out a separate business (or just straight license it out), rather than doing everything myself.
So this is really about having something to negotiate over rather than trying to protect an existing business. Not sure if that makes much of a difference, but it seems that a lot of people approach patents expecting them to ring-fence a product that is being sold.
You are correct in that an initial filing is much cheaper than what is required later and does afford you some protection from people ripping your idea off.I'm not expecting a patent to protect me from copycats - or to be something I can enforce myself. My understanding is I can make an initial application that gives me ~12 months before a full (and much more expensive) application is necessary.
That *could* give me enough time to approach investors, collaborators or partners with some evidence that I have something that (a) is novel and (b) has some IP protection that they could enforce. My ideal here is to grow out a separate business (or just straight license it out), rather than doing everything myself.
So this is really about having something to negotiate over rather than trying to protect an existing business. Not sure if that makes much of a difference, but it seems that a lot of people approach patents expecting them to ring-fence a product that is being sold.
Intrigued by your idea, would be interested to find out more (perhaps post initial filing when it is safe to do so outside of a CDA (iirc))
BigBen said:
Intrigued by your idea, would be interested to find out more (perhaps post initial filing when it is safe to do so outside of a CDA (iirc))
Always happy to talk to people in this area (technically or geographically!). I'm in Cambridge Makespace and on the edge of various entrepreneur groups - trying to move away from being pure software to product concept/dev. The goal is to be the next Teenage Engineering... or at least not spend my working life making other people's projects earn money for them.I'm working on a bunch of different stuff, with this being a real moon-shot, but it's one of those annoying ideas that seems to have legs despite being wildly ambitious.
Tuna said:
Always happy to talk to people in this area (technically or geographically!). I'm in Cambridge Makespace and on the edge of various entrepreneur groups - trying to move away from being pure software to product concept/dev. The goal is to be the next Teenage Engineering... or at least not spend my working life making other people's projects earn money for them.
I'm working on a bunch of different stuff, with this being a real moon-shot, but it's one of those annoying ideas that seems to have legs despite being wildly ambitious.
I am in the area on both counts. My employer part funds the Makespace so you will (or should if we are getting some exposure for our money) be familiar with them. Happy to meet for a pint one day.I'm working on a bunch of different stuff, with this being a real moon-shot, but it's one of those annoying ideas that seems to have legs despite being wildly ambitious.
Ben
I went through the process of patenting a heat recovery product, got some financial support through the governments energy efficiency department, who had an entrepreneurs support scheme, in my nativity I assumed that the patent would be written in such a way as to make it difficult for the product to be copied, that wasn’t the aim at all, which was to allow you to sue the arse off anybody who tried.
I am a patent attorney, so have seen patents used in a range of contexts.
Is it correct to assume that you are considering this as a new business, rather than adding the product to an existing business of yours?
Most of my start-up clients get value from their patent applications, once I have explained how to do that for their commercial context. However, the clients who rarely benefit from the process are those who don't seem to be pushing the underlying business, between each conversation with them. The most common factor is being too busy with other jobs.
The best thing to do is to start growing the business as soon as the patent application is filed (and before, but only under NDAs with trusted partners). This is, for most, a full time job and sometimes 60-80 hours per week.
Many of the other posters have provided useful insights, and they seem that they will be well worth talking to.
I am of course happy to chat further.
Is it correct to assume that you are considering this as a new business, rather than adding the product to an existing business of yours?
Most of my start-up clients get value from their patent applications, once I have explained how to do that for their commercial context. However, the clients who rarely benefit from the process are those who don't seem to be pushing the underlying business, between each conversation with them. The most common factor is being too busy with other jobs.
The best thing to do is to start growing the business as soon as the patent application is filed (and before, but only under NDAs with trusted partners). This is, for most, a full time job and sometimes 60-80 hours per week.
Many of the other posters have provided useful insights, and they seem that they will be well worth talking to.
I am of course happy to chat further.
Grrbang said:
I am a patent attorney, so have seen patents used in a range of contexts.
Is it correct to assume that you are considering this as a new business, rather than adding the product to an existing business of yours?
Most of my start-up clients get value from their patent applications, once I have explained how to do that for their commercial context. However, the clients who rarely benefit from the process are those who don't seem to be pushing the underlying business, between each conversation with them. The most common factor is being too busy with other jobs.
The best thing to do is to start growing the business as soon as the patent application is filed (and before, but only under NDAs with trusted partners). This is, for most, a full time job and sometimes 60-80 hours per week.
Many of the other posters have provided useful insights, and they seem that they will be well worth talking to.
I am of course happy to chat further.
What’s the impact of sharing details without an NDA after filing?Is it correct to assume that you are considering this as a new business, rather than adding the product to an existing business of yours?
Most of my start-up clients get value from their patent applications, once I have explained how to do that for their commercial context. However, the clients who rarely benefit from the process are those who don't seem to be pushing the underlying business, between each conversation with them. The most common factor is being too busy with other jobs.
The best thing to do is to start growing the business as soon as the patent application is filed (and before, but only under NDAs with trusted partners). This is, for most, a full time job and sometimes 60-80 hours per week.
Many of the other posters have provided useful insights, and they seem that they will be well worth talking to.
I am of course happy to chat further.
pete_esp said:
What’s the impact of sharing details without an NDA after filing?
As far as patentability is concerned, you could publicly disclose what’s in the filed patent application and the disclosure wouldn’t become ‘prior art’ against that application.By contrast, public self-disclosure before filing would become prior art, potentially ruling out future UK patent protection.
NDAs after filing may still be useful for commercial reasons, however.
Grrbang said:
As far as patentability is concerned, you could publicly disclose what’s in the filed patent application and the disclosure wouldn’t become ‘prior art’ against that application.
By contrast, public self-disclosure before filing would become prior art, potentially ruling out future UK patent protection.
NDAs after filing may still be useful for commercial reasons, however.
Thanks for the clarification Grrbang, thus far all of my commercial disclosures have been under NDA and prior to filing there were very few disclosures again under strict NDA. In fact I insisted on additional security measures beyond what my attorneys were used too when communicating with them. Not that I'm paranoid of course!By contrast, public self-disclosure before filing would become prior art, potentially ruling out future UK patent protection.
NDAs after filing may still be useful for commercial reasons, however.
I still treat my invention as a very much closely guarded secret and I have taken the view that if a potential commercial partner won't sign the NDA then I don't want to do business with them. Though hopefully not for too much longer as I expect it to be in the market soon and the IPO will publish the details of the invention in a few months anyway!
Moneybox has just done an interesting episode on the ins and outs of patent for lone inventors.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011cyq
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011cyq
Ean218 said:
Moneybox has just done an interesting episode on the ins and outs of patent for lone inventors.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011cyq
Yes, I enjoyed that episode!https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011cyq
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