Property company / fraudulent sale long story please advise
Discussion
My Grandfather who owned 50% of a property company passed away earlier this year.
My Aunt got my Grandfather to sign his shares over to my Nan (85 y/o) who had the other 50%.
My Aunt then proceeded to sell Property Company via an Chartered Accountants to someone that the Account knew for a low price, 300 to 400 thousand pound less than it was valued at.
No paper work from Accountant regarding this sale.
Nan says its all ok and doesnt want anything more to do with it, she has never had an interest in it.
Aunt doesnt care and done this behind everyone else's back in the family.
Grandfather was NOT in a fit state to sign his share of 50% of company over.
Aunt has joint power of Attorney with 2 other relatives.
imo the company should never have been sold as it was bringing in an income to pay for bills and now bills will be coming out of the money that she received for the sale of company.
What can i do? Is there anyway this could be reversed?
My Nan had no idea it was such a bad deal and my Aunt couldnt care less.
My Aunt got my Grandfather to sign his shares over to my Nan (85 y/o) who had the other 50%.
My Aunt then proceeded to sell Property Company via an Chartered Accountants to someone that the Account knew for a low price, 300 to 400 thousand pound less than it was valued at.
No paper work from Accountant regarding this sale.
Nan says its all ok and doesnt want anything more to do with it, she has never had an interest in it.
Aunt doesnt care and done this behind everyone else's back in the family.
Grandfather was NOT in a fit state to sign his share of 50% of company over.
Aunt has joint power of Attorney with 2 other relatives.
imo the company should never have been sold as it was bringing in an income to pay for bills and now bills will be coming out of the money that she received for the sale of company.
What can i do? Is there anyway this could be reversed?
My Nan had no idea it was such a bad deal and my Aunt couldnt care less.
I suppose that the short and blunt answer is "it has nothing to do with you".
However, perhaps answers to a couple of questions might help:
I'm assuming the Aunt is their daughter. The daughter has POA. Your grandmother now has all the proceeds of the sale. That all seems legit. What evidence do you have to suggest the sale was below what could have been achieved and why do you think it is fraudulent? Also, to return to the blunt answer, is there any reason in particular for your concern?
However, perhaps answers to a couple of questions might help:
I'm assuming the Aunt is their daughter. The daughter has POA. Your grandmother now has all the proceeds of the sale. That all seems legit. What evidence do you have to suggest the sale was below what could have been achieved and why do you think it is fraudulent? Also, to return to the blunt answer, is there any reason in particular for your concern?
BoggoStump said:
now bills will be coming out of the money that she received for the sale of company.
This sticks out. Is there an angle here, and surely if your nan doesn't want the hassle of the buiness then she has the right to sell. The shares would have gone to her anyway. It does feel like you are more interesting in protecting the money, than letting you nan move on with life.Ouroboros said:
BoggoStump said:
now bills will be coming out of the money that she received for the sale of company.
This sticks out. Is there an angle here, and surely if your nan doesn't want the hassle of the buiness then she has the right to sell. The shares would have gone to her anyway. It does feel like you are more interesting in protecting the money, than letting you nan move on with life.Yeah - not sure you're going to get the responses you were hoping for on this one, Boggo.
At worse, what you've described is what simply appears to be a pretty poor deal but without knowing the purchase value, P&L and everything else, that's just conjecture.
There's no legal obligation for the Accountants to provide anyone outside of the deal any paperwork other than that which is lodged at Companies House.
What money is going to come out of the business that would remain the obligation of the family post sale? (other than tax and accountancy fees relating to the sale).
The only scope I can see for anything suspect is if the accountant was in cahoots with the buyer who rewarded the accountant for driving the price down unduly. Or if the Accountant was just s
t at their job and could be proven not to be acting in the best interests of their client; your Aunt. But that would be for her to pursue.
As the sale has happened (I assume), it cannot be reversed. Even if it were possible, what would happen to it? Given that it seems nobody is interested in the business, who'd run it?
Sorry - it's not nice, I know but it is what it is.
At worse, what you've described is what simply appears to be a pretty poor deal but without knowing the purchase value, P&L and everything else, that's just conjecture.
There's no legal obligation for the Accountants to provide anyone outside of the deal any paperwork other than that which is lodged at Companies House.
What money is going to come out of the business that would remain the obligation of the family post sale? (other than tax and accountancy fees relating to the sale).
The only scope I can see for anything suspect is if the accountant was in cahoots with the buyer who rewarded the accountant for driving the price down unduly. Or if the Accountant was just s
t at their job and could be proven not to be acting in the best interests of their client; your Aunt. But that would be for her to pursue.As the sale has happened (I assume), it cannot be reversed. Even if it were possible, what would happen to it? Given that it seems nobody is interested in the business, who'd run it?
Sorry - it's not nice, I know but it is what it is.
BoggoStump said:
It all falls down to inheritance. But why should this account get away with doing this and my Aunt.
Even if inheritance was nothing to do with it. This is not right and how can an Accountant get away with this?
The Accountant acts upon the instruction of their client. They may advise their client but providing everything is legal, then ultimately they do what they're asked to do ensuring everything is done according to the law. The actual numbers involved aren't that important as there's nothing legally stopping anyone selling for something less than its worth - unless they and the buyer are in cahoots and proving that is difficult.Even if inheritance was nothing to do with it. This is not right and how can an Accountant get away with this?
BoggoStump said:
My Grandfather who owned 50% of a property company passed away earlier this year.
My Aunt got my Grandfather to sign his shares over to my Nan (85 y/o) who had the other 50%....
imo the company should never have been sold as it was bringing in an income to pay for bills and now bills will be coming out of the money that she received for the sale of company.
I expect an 85 year-old didn't want to run a company single-handed, so cashed in.My Aunt got my Grandfather to sign his shares over to my Nan (85 y/o) who had the other 50%....
imo the company should never have been sold as it was bringing in an income to pay for bills and now bills will be coming out of the money that she received for the sale of company.
The first 'glitch' is the part about your grandfather not being of sound mind when he signed the shares over - but do you have medical evidence?
Anyway, I don't see how a sale can be reversed, so yep, move on I'm afraid. The elderly care much less about money than the young; all they want is 'enough' without hassle or complexity.
My Grandfather had Alzheimer's, he was in hospital when my Aunt went there on his Birthday and got him to sign it over.
Makes me feel sick to think she could even do all this without letting anyone else know except my Nan who's not all there.
The Accountant hasnt provided my Nan with any receipt or breakdown in paperwork about it. (i dont know if he even has to?)
As for someone running the company there are plenty of people within the family who would of run it, but my Grandfather was a very stubborn and wanted to run it on his own. Then we found out it was sold after he died.
Makes me feel sick to think she could even do all this without letting anyone else know except my Nan who's not all there.
The Accountant hasnt provided my Nan with any receipt or breakdown in paperwork about it. (i dont know if he even has to?)
As for someone running the company there are plenty of people within the family who would of run it, but my Grandfather was a very stubborn and wanted to run it on his own. Then we found out it was sold after he died.
BoggoStump said:
My Grandfather had Alzheimer's, he was in hospital when my Aunt went there on his Birthday and got him to sign it over.
Makes me feel sick to think she could even do all this without letting anyone else know except my Nan who's not all there.
The Accountant hasnt provided my Nan with any receipt or breakdown in paperwork about it. (i dont know if he even has to?)
As for someone running the company there are plenty of people within the family who would of run it, but my Grandfather was a very stubborn and wanted to run it on his own. Then we found out it was sold after he died.
You’re in danger of getting ourself bent out of shape about this based solely on what seems to be your opinion about the deal. The company had zero to do with you. You seem to have knowledge of some “valuation” and believe it was sold for less than this. Do you believe it was deliberately sold for less? If so, why? How sound do you believe the valuation was? A valuation is no guarantee of the price an asset can be sold for.Makes me feel sick to think she could even do all this without letting anyone else know except my Nan who's not all there.
The Accountant hasnt provided my Nan with any receipt or breakdown in paperwork about it. (i dont know if he even has to?)
As for someone running the company there are plenty of people within the family who would of run it, but my Grandfather was a very stubborn and wanted to run it on his own. Then we found out it was sold after he died.
“No paperwork” is highly unlikely. Most probably there would have been solicitors acting for both parties. You aren’t entitled to details of the deal but your Aunt and the other two holder’s of POA are. What have the other two done?
The seller (your Grandmother) is happy but you’re not. In the absence of any evidence that she has been duped (not just your vague opinion as an outsider) I think you need to move on. Be happy that your Grandmother is content and has ensured financial security for her final years.
BoggoStump said:
The other 2 POA's have done nothing as they dont know what to do.
Im not asking for just me.
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder typical PH twit
I've got a chip on my shoulder?!Im not asking for just me.
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder typical PH twit
You're the one blathering on about what someone has done with their own business - with concern only about your inheritance. I'm glad your Grandmother and her daughter are happy.
A final point for you to consider: you keep whining about your Grandfather not knowing what he was doing when he gave his shares in the business to his wife. Presumably he would have left them to her in his will anyway - making the point entirely moot.
BoggoStump said:
My Grandfather had Alzheimer's, he was in hospital when my Aunt went there on his Birthday and got him to sign it over.
Makes me feel sick to think she could even do all this without letting anyone else know except my Nan who's not all there.
The Accountant hasnt provided my Nan with any receipt or breakdown in paperwork about it. (i dont know if he even has to?)
As for someone running the company there are plenty of people within the family who would of run it, but my Grandfather was a very stubborn and wanted to run it on his own. Then we found out it was sold after he died.
NO receipt or payment breakdown?? do you know if your Aunt has pocketed the difference and split it with the accountant????Makes me feel sick to think she could even do all this without letting anyone else know except my Nan who's not all there.
The Accountant hasnt provided my Nan with any receipt or breakdown in paperwork about it. (i dont know if he even has to?)
As for someone running the company there are plenty of people within the family who would of run it, but my Grandfather was a very stubborn and wanted to run it on his own. Then we found out it was sold after he died.
Simplifying this (and echoing what others have already said):
1. GF and GM each owned 50% of the shares in a company.
2. D holds a POA with two other individuals (for whom? GM or GM and GF?).
3. GF transfers his 50% to GM. Maybe acting via D exercising POA; maybe not. GF maybe had Alzheimer’s at the time.
4. GF dies.
5. GM sells the co at an undervalue apparently acting via D who exercises POA. Sale is brokered by accountant.
If GM was the sole beneficiary of GF’s estate then I don’t see who has a complaint about GF transferring his shares. On the face of it GF has been done out of the value of the shares, but he is dead now and the beneficiary is GM who got the value of the shares on the transfer. It just looks like a convenience transfer to move the shares out of the ownership of someone who was incapacitated to the spouse who’d get them eventually anyway.
If GM has been conned into selling the shares to a third party at an undervalue, that’s a potential complaint. But the only person who can raise the complaint is GM, and she doesn’t want to.
Looking at it slightly differently, if you own a company outright you can sell it for what you want. You have no duty to the beneficiaries in your will to maximise its sale value and they can’t complain if you choose to sell it for tuppence.
Sorry OP, but I think the involvement of your Aunt and the accountant are red herrings because your Nan isn’t bothered about the sale value. Your Nan decided to cash in, did so for a price that she considers adequate, and that’s that. Your Aunt had to act in your Nan’s best interests, yes, but your Nan considers her best interests to have been met by the sale. And she (your Nan) is the only proper judge of what her best interests are.
If your Nan chooses to give all of the proceeds of the sale to the local cats’ home and live in penury that is up to her, even if that means her estate is worthless on her death.
1. GF and GM each owned 50% of the shares in a company.
2. D holds a POA with two other individuals (for whom? GM or GM and GF?).
3. GF transfers his 50% to GM. Maybe acting via D exercising POA; maybe not. GF maybe had Alzheimer’s at the time.
4. GF dies.
5. GM sells the co at an undervalue apparently acting via D who exercises POA. Sale is brokered by accountant.
If GM was the sole beneficiary of GF’s estate then I don’t see who has a complaint about GF transferring his shares. On the face of it GF has been done out of the value of the shares, but he is dead now and the beneficiary is GM who got the value of the shares on the transfer. It just looks like a convenience transfer to move the shares out of the ownership of someone who was incapacitated to the spouse who’d get them eventually anyway.
If GM has been conned into selling the shares to a third party at an undervalue, that’s a potential complaint. But the only person who can raise the complaint is GM, and she doesn’t want to.
Looking at it slightly differently, if you own a company outright you can sell it for what you want. You have no duty to the beneficiaries in your will to maximise its sale value and they can’t complain if you choose to sell it for tuppence.
Sorry OP, but I think the involvement of your Aunt and the accountant are red herrings because your Nan isn’t bothered about the sale value. Your Nan decided to cash in, did so for a price that she considers adequate, and that’s that. Your Aunt had to act in your Nan’s best interests, yes, but your Nan considers her best interests to have been met by the sale. And she (your Nan) is the only proper judge of what her best interests are.
If your Nan chooses to give all of the proceeds of the sale to the local cats’ home and live in penury that is up to her, even if that means her estate is worthless on her death.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 27th April 16:46
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