Employment law anyone? Girlfriend has just been fired...
Discussion
Hi Guys and Gals,
I was hoping that anyone with a decent grasp of emploment law wouldnt mind offering a little advice.
My girlfriend has just come out of a return to work interview with her boss and has been told that her employment has been terminated immediately due to poor attendence.
She was left standing outside work with a box full of her things and I was luckily able to arrange for my Dad to pop round and pick her up (she doesnt drive).
Background info:
She had a poor attendence record over a few months last year, she recieved a verbal warning in October stating that unless attendence improved dramatically over the next couple of months further action would follow.
Absence since the start of October was Zero. Last week she was signed off by the doctor on the monday, delivered a sick not from said doctor, as well as a call to inform of the results of the doctors appointment pretty much immediately. Absense procedure followed to the letter.
She returned on Monday, RTW interview today, with the aforementioned result.
Anywhere to go from here?
I was hoping that anyone with a decent grasp of emploment law wouldnt mind offering a little advice.
My girlfriend has just come out of a return to work interview with her boss and has been told that her employment has been terminated immediately due to poor attendence.
She was left standing outside work with a box full of her things and I was luckily able to arrange for my Dad to pop round and pick her up (she doesnt drive).
Background info:
She had a poor attendence record over a few months last year, she recieved a verbal warning in October stating that unless attendence improved dramatically over the next couple of months further action would follow.
Absence since the start of October was Zero. Last week she was signed off by the doctor on the monday, delivered a sick not from said doctor, as well as a call to inform of the results of the doctors appointment pretty much immediately. Absense procedure followed to the letter.
She returned on Monday, RTW interview today, with the aforementioned result.
Anywhere to go from here?
pdV6 said:
I'd have thought that if the absence procedure was followed to the letter and the absence was above board, the company would have trouble at a hearing.
My thought was that she couldnt be fired at said meeting without there being further action taken (ie final warning etc). Let alone instantly dismissed (in a similar manner to a "gross misconduct" issue) with no notice given.
Thought I had a pretty good understanding of some aspects of employment law, however I dont claim to be an expert.
probably technically the company are within their rights to treat this absence as a continuation of poor attendance as it is only 2/3 months since the verbal warning was given.
However, you can only be instantly dissmissed for "gross misconduct" which it appears as if this absence doesn't fall into.
Whilst your g/f followed procedure has the manager? and does his HR people know what he's done?
He should have;
- undertaken an investigation
- a 3rd person should review the evidence
- consider the evidence and decide on punishment
- advise employee of punishment and their rights to apeal etc etc.
Hope this helps and good luck!!
However, you can only be instantly dissmissed for "gross misconduct" which it appears as if this absence doesn't fall into.
Whilst your g/f followed procedure has the manager? and does his HR people know what he's done?
He should have;
- undertaken an investigation
- a 3rd person should review the evidence
- consider the evidence and decide on punishment
- advise employee of punishment and their rights to apeal etc etc.
Hope this helps and good luck!!
Well. If she likes she can go to Citizen's advice and see if she can take some action. It may be possible.
There again - I'm afraid getting fired ain't great on the CV. About the only thing that tops it is being involved in a tribunal. It doesn't matter which way it goes - during an interview it will count against her.
Canny interviewers *will* ask (I'm the HR Director as part of my job) a range of ex-employment questions of her designed to bring out this sort of information. She can lie - but then can be fired on the spot should it ever come out.
My advice to her would be to move on. Get searching for a new job a.s.a.p. Chances are she wouldn't want her old job back anyway...as a working environment it would be deeply unpleasant I imagine.
If an interviewer asks why she left her last job use a rely like "My ex-employer and I did not agree about working conditions. In the end it was better to part company. I'm sure we're both better off as a result."
Good luck to her. Not nice losing your job.
There again - I'm afraid getting fired ain't great on the CV. About the only thing that tops it is being involved in a tribunal. It doesn't matter which way it goes - during an interview it will count against her.
Canny interviewers *will* ask (I'm the HR Director as part of my job) a range of ex-employment questions of her designed to bring out this sort of information. She can lie - but then can be fired on the spot should it ever come out.
My advice to her would be to move on. Get searching for a new job a.s.a.p. Chances are she wouldn't want her old job back anyway...as a working environment it would be deeply unpleasant I imagine.
If an interviewer asks why she left her last job use a rely like "My ex-employer and I did not agree about working conditions. In the end it was better to part company. I'm sure we're both better off as a result."
Good luck to her. Not nice losing your job.
It depends on the co terms & conditions - how long has she worked there? How bad has her attendance been - how many days sick since starting/days off for other reasons ie boiler broken type thing? How does their 'sick year' run? It's a tough one. Did she complete a medical questionnaire stating that she had a recurring sick problem when she started - does she or is it just colds/flu/headachey type things? Have rtw interviews been carried out for each occasion or have self certificarion forms been completed? Has anyone else had a rtw interview, or just her (could be victimisation).
All these need to be taken into consideration - it's not quite as easy as being fired for poor attendance
All these need to be taken into consideration - it's not quite as easy as being fired for poor attendance
Phoned her with the Citizens Advice number and told her to get on the blower to them ASAP.
Turns out she does have 5 working days to appeal, which she will be doing.
Quite frankly she hates the job as well as the people she's working with, but she cant afford to simply quit (or be instantly dismissed without notice) as my current contract comes to an end on Tuesday....
Turns out she does have 5 working days to appeal, which she will be doing.
Quite frankly she hates the job as well as the people she's working with, but she cant afford to simply quit (or be instantly dismissed without notice) as my current contract comes to an end on Tuesday....
take Dons points about a tribunsl very, veryseriously. It is entirely unfair, of course, but he is dead right - the last thing anyone wants on their CV is a suggestion they are a 'trouble maker'. The rights and wrongs arent relevant to a potential future employer...unless she has unqie skills and personality then tey will simply avoid the risk sasociated with her......
sounds like her preiovus employer is either a compltet git, or that her absences have been suspect and unacceptably explained, or a real problem for the company. I doubt very much whether they could justify her sacking (a written warning is only step 1 in the getting rid of someone process. He would have had to put a 'things you must do or you're out of here' formal process in place too (AFAIK)) but she could easily win this battle and lose the 'war' as it were....
sounds like her preiovus employer is either a compltet git, or that her absences have been suspect and unacceptably explained, or a real problem for the company. I doubt very much whether they could justify her sacking (a written warning is only step 1 in the getting rid of someone process. He would have had to put a 'things you must do or you're out of here' formal process in place too (AFAIK)) but she could easily win this battle and lose the 'war' as it were....
How long had she been employed there?
If less than two years, then it probably simply ain't worth the hassle.
Some employers are advised by so-called experts in the way in which they deal with these matters. Do you know if these are?
As said by others, it is best to avoid a Tribunal if you can. My wife went to one and won but she'd been at the company for 5 years.
If less than two years, then it probably simply ain't worth the hassle.
Some employers are advised by so-called experts in the way in which they deal with these matters. Do you know if these are?
As said by others, it is best to avoid a Tribunal if you can. My wife went to one and won but she'd been at the company for 5 years.
Davel said:
Some employers are advised by so-called experts in the way in which they deal with these matters. Do you know if these are?
Most employers are advised by HR professionals who, despite being low-life scum like lawyers, accountants, and IT consultants do tend to know what they are on about. Even I know enough - and I only do it part-time. Of course as an employer and a Director people tend to think of me as low-life scum but, hey, I'm cool with that.
Its no trouble at all to fast-track the dismissal process if you write it carefully. Things like having an "Employee Handbook" available in the office that explains everything etc etc. If one plans one employment strategy correctly its possible to keep employee rights to an absolute minimum. Sadly in this day and age it surely *pays* the canny small business to be very careful and on-top of such things.
They *may* have screwed up - which would be nice given the dismissal is unjust - but I doubt it.
Fingers crossed for the lass. But I'd stand by my advice which is the best thing is to move on a.s.a.p. and put this behind her. Much nicer for her and least likely to cause grief with the old employer.
Don said:
Some employers are advised by so-called experts in the way in which they deal with these matters. Do you know if these are?
Most employers are advised by HR professionals who, despite being low-life scum like lawyers, accountants, and IT consultants do tend to know what they are on about. Even I know enough - and I only do it part-time. Of course as an employer and a Director people tend to think of me as low-life scum but, hey, I'm cool with that.
Its no trouble at all to fast-track the dismissal process if you write it carefully. Things like having an "Employee Handbook" available in the office that explains everything etc etc. If one plans one employment strategy correctly its possible to keep employee rights to an absolute minimum. Sadly in this day and age it surely *pays* the canny small business to be very careful and on-top of such things.
They *may* have screwed up - which would be nice given the dismissal is unjust - but I doubt it.
Fingers crossed for the lass. But I'd stand by my advice which is the best thing is to move on a.s.a.p. and put this behind her. Much nicer for her and least likely to cause grief with the old employer.
You are probably right Don, we will see which way this pans out. She will be appealing within the timeframe and we will see which way that one goes (probably a waste of time, lets be honest).
She's been there around a year, unfortunately the timing of "your sacked, leave the building immediately" is a bit of a nightmare for us cashflow-wise.
She's speaking to the CAB tomorrow, beyond that and the appeal we will see how things turn out.
Thanks for the advice guys and gals, its very much appreciated.
TBH now there's a little more info - tell her to just walk away - it's not worth putting herself through an appeal, the person whom she's got to go to may well be 'the advisor' to her boss. She's not been there long enough to really qualify for any 'consideration' - around a years nothing in the current climate - it's at least 2 years service before its worth tribunal status.
Hope she find's a new job soon!
Hope she find's a new job soon!
If she's been there less than a year, I suspect that there's very little she can do. In some companies as the first year anniversary approaches they can be pretty ruthless, on the basis it's a hell of a lot easier to get rid of people than waiting until after the one year anniversary and then having to go through all of the procedures.
If she's been there longer than a year, I'll be amazed if the employer has acted within the law/contract.
If she's been there longer than a year, I'll be amazed if the employer has acted within the law/contract.
If she's been there over a year, her employers should have followed the rules which came in October 2004.
They should have written to her with an agenda to organise a meeting. At that meeting she would be entitled to a workmate (or union rep, depending on company's COE).
If they didn't go through this procedure it's automatically unfair dismissal.
They should have written to her with an agenda to organise a meeting. At that meeting she would be entitled to a workmate (or union rep, depending on company's COE).
If they didn't go through this procedure it's automatically unfair dismissal.
As an employer myself I can assure you they would have rung ACAS or A.N.Other to assess their standing before firing your GF....Poor Attendance in most cases often precedes nonchalance low-productivity and contempt, leading to bad relations with the employer! Once you reach this stage you might as well forget it...
Tell your GF to forget about it, move on, use her energy to concentrate on getting a new Job...Keep positive...because what go's around comes around!
When one door closes another opens....
I got sacked once and I never let it hold me back!
Supes.
(If she can cut hair I might have a job for her)
Tell your GF to forget about it, move on, use her energy to concentrate on getting a new Job...Keep positive...because what go's around comes around!
When one door closes another opens....
I got sacked once and I never let it hold me back!
Supes.
(If she can cut hair I might have a job for her)
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
As an employer myself I can assure you they would have rung ACAS or A.N.Other to assess their standing before firing your GF....
It don't sound like it to me Supes.
I've "shot from the hip" many times, an worried about it after!
You can't shoot from the hip anymore 2SB...they're all too clued up!
(I've got three books to muse over and if they don't help I make the call!)
SuPaSpArK said:
As an employer myself I can assure you they would have rung ACAS or A.N.Other to assess their standing before firing your GF....
It don't sound like it to me Supes.
I've "shot from the hip" many times, an worried about it after!
You can't shoot from the hip anymore 2SB...they're all too clued up!
(I've got three books to muse over and if they don't help I make the call!)
You'd be surprised matey. If they've not done the agenda/meeting/review/appeal thing then they've already fecked it up.
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