legal matter - help
Discussion
Im not fussed about the money, its a small amount, and Im certainly not going to court over it! But, that said, I would like to learn where I stand legally. I'll keep this as brief as possible.
Client X said they did not pay their old web designer a penny, fell out with him (speaks volumes) and said they did not intend to pay him either, but they took the 99% complete ecommerce website he made them (still without paying him) and asked us to perform a health check. To make sure all work was done, as the old designer (poor chap) said it was.
Client X asked us to check the ecommerce website, make sure it was working.
I told cilent (on phone, in writing) this is a considerable amount of work, its not an easy "open lid, look inside, provide report" job. We will need hours to go through the code as well as test all the functionality of the site. But admitedly, I faied to say "we will charge you for our time" (my bad. But then 95% of people I deal with are fair, and dont try to hide behind burocracy)
Client agreed we were to proceed and check over her website. She asked us to provide a quote for any new work which needed to be done. We spent hours checking over the site, testing it etc, and told her afterwards the labour for our time spent checking was £X, with good news - the site is actually complete, save one error, which we would fix for £60.
The amounts we charged her are very small, but she refuses to pay, saying she did not instruct us to perform any work, only asked us to check over her site. Said we dont have a purchase order. Said she only asked for a quote.
And quite rightly, she says I did not state in writing that we would charge her for our time spent checking her website. And refuses to pay.
Trying to see this as a learning experience. I get on well with my clients, and dont run my business as a "send me a purchase order first, stating the agreed XYZ in writing" type affair when it comes to small jobs (which we do many of per day) as the larger corporates do. Perhaps I should.
Who is in the right and wrong here. I feel it is unfair for her to assume, having been warned in writing that "the time you are asking us to spend on this is going to be several hours" that she wrongly assumed we would work for free. I can think of 100+ types of small businesses which dont issue purchase orders for small jobs, walk down any highstreet - surely the courts would protect me if a case like this went to court, then again, perhaps not...
She is in the wrong, but its the fact that she is trying to hide behind burocracy(sp) which I find irksome.
Opinions?
Client X said they did not pay their old web designer a penny, fell out with him (speaks volumes) and said they did not intend to pay him either, but they took the 99% complete ecommerce website he made them (still without paying him) and asked us to perform a health check. To make sure all work was done, as the old designer (poor chap) said it was.
Client X asked us to check the ecommerce website, make sure it was working.
I told cilent (on phone, in writing) this is a considerable amount of work, its not an easy "open lid, look inside, provide report" job. We will need hours to go through the code as well as test all the functionality of the site. But admitedly, I faied to say "we will charge you for our time" (my bad. But then 95% of people I deal with are fair, and dont try to hide behind burocracy)
Client agreed we were to proceed and check over her website. She asked us to provide a quote for any new work which needed to be done. We spent hours checking over the site, testing it etc, and told her afterwards the labour for our time spent checking was £X, with good news - the site is actually complete, save one error, which we would fix for £60.
The amounts we charged her are very small, but she refuses to pay, saying she did not instruct us to perform any work, only asked us to check over her site. Said we dont have a purchase order. Said she only asked for a quote.
And quite rightly, she says I did not state in writing that we would charge her for our time spent checking her website. And refuses to pay.
Trying to see this as a learning experience. I get on well with my clients, and dont run my business as a "send me a purchase order first, stating the agreed XYZ in writing" type affair when it comes to small jobs (which we do many of per day) as the larger corporates do. Perhaps I should.
Who is in the right and wrong here. I feel it is unfair for her to assume, having been warned in writing that "the time you are asking us to spend on this is going to be several hours" that she wrongly assumed we would work for free. I can think of 100+ types of small businesses which dont issue purchase orders for small jobs, walk down any highstreet - surely the courts would protect me if a case like this went to court, then again, perhaps not...
She is in the wrong, but its the fact that she is trying to hide behind burocracy(sp) which I find irksome.
Opinions?
Edited by UKBob on Wednesday 7th June 12:23
Davel said:
She is being devious and is clearly the type of customer who wants everything but isn't prepared to pay for it.
The type that you really don't need!
Agreed. Im torn between treating this as a learning experience, just shrugging it off and letting her go... and rage. The last 8 months have seen more "problem clients" than the last 8 years The type that you really don't need!
beano500 said:
can't you add an "enhancement" or two to make the site more exciting!???
I gave her the car mechanic example. Ask a dealer or indie (one you have no relationship with) to check the car over thoroughly, top to bottom. If they tell you its "a few hours of work, we'll squeeze you in next week" they shouldnt have to state the words in writing "which you will be charged for" in order to have the legal right to bill you.
My take on it is that she's obviously the type of person who engineers these situations deliberately - it speaks volumes that the site itself is 99.9% perfect but she refused to pay the original developer(s).
Learning experience for you: always always put everything in writing and don't start a job until the client's agreed the T&C's under which you will do it.
Learning experience for you: always always put everything in writing and don't start a job until the client's agreed the T&C's under which you will do it.
UK BoB -
Try not to take it personally - easier said than done. I run my own business and do take it personally but learning not to.
The straw that breaks the camels back. writing off commission/fees that are due (and they are due to you) really niggles me and causes me more anguish and upset than the actual figures involved. I imagine it does to all owners of businesses especially when they themselves have done the work rather than an employee.
I not have little hesitation in taking or threatening court action to recover ANY commission due. Its a matter of principle and my sanity. Stuff the money. I
Write a 7 day letter for full payment, on the 8th day start small claims proceedings. You will feel so much better about it. stuff the money, if you win good, if you dont then fine, you have run the course of action and stood up for what you beleived was right and correct, it also will hopefully give this client a bit of a nuisance and may not do it again to others.
Hit them hard and fast - sledge hammer to break a nut. works for me where people owe me money - as they dont!
Try not to take it personally - easier said than done. I run my own business and do take it personally but learning not to.
The straw that breaks the camels back. writing off commission/fees that are due (and they are due to you) really niggles me and causes me more anguish and upset than the actual figures involved. I imagine it does to all owners of businesses especially when they themselves have done the work rather than an employee.
I not have little hesitation in taking or threatening court action to recover ANY commission due. Its a matter of principle and my sanity. Stuff the money. I
Write a 7 day letter for full payment, on the 8th day start small claims proceedings. You will feel so much better about it. stuff the money, if you win good, if you dont then fine, you have run the course of action and stood up for what you beleived was right and correct, it also will hopefully give this client a bit of a nuisance and may not do it again to others.
Hit them hard and fast - sledge hammer to break a nut. works for me where people owe me money - as they dont!
Davel said:
I'm not technical on websites etc but can't you do something to lock/freeze it until you get paid?
Yes, if it was our work. Its far too small a project to worry about, but its not our work (we only checked it) and because she refused to pay the only next step would be to seek a resolution via the courts. Which I obviously wont persue. pdV6 said:
My take on it is that she's obviously the type of person who engineers these situations deliberately - it speaks volumes that the site itself is 99.9% perfect but she refused to pay the original developer(s).
Learning experience for you: always always put everything in writing and don't start a job until the client's agreed the T&C's under which you will do it.
Although I have her instructions to start work in writing, and she has my friendly warning (in writing) that its hourS worth of work, I cant help but wonder how the law would view the situation. You cant assume people will work for free, if they dont state a price. Which would have been impossible anyway, as we had to do the work (checking her site) in order to assess the situation and provide a quote for further work (which we did when finished) Learning experience for you: always always put everything in writing and don't start a job until the client's agreed the T&C's under which you will do it.
superlightr said:
UK BoB -
Try not to take it personally - easier said than done. I run my own business and do take it personally but learning not to.
The straw that breaks the camels back. writing off commission/fees that are due (and they are due to you) really niggles me and causes me more anguish and upset than the actual figures involved. I imagine it does to all owners of businesses especially when they themselves have done the work rather than an employee.
I not have little hesitation in taking or threatening court action to recover ANY commission due. Its a matter of principle and my sanity. Stuff the money. I
Write a 7 day letter for full payment, on the 8th day start small claims proceedings. You will feel so much better about it. stuff the money, if you win good, if you dont then fine, you have run the course of action and stood up for what you beleived was right and correct, it also will hopefully give this client a bit of a nuisance and may not do it again to others.
Hit them hard and fast - sledge hammer to break a nut. works for me where people owe me money - as they dont!
Agreed. Im already "down" a five figure sum of money this year(!) due to the legal issues which have arisen since 2006 began. Its hurting. But what hurts more is having to deal with people who argue black is white. Try not to take it personally - easier said than done. I run my own business and do take it personally but learning not to.
The straw that breaks the camels back. writing off commission/fees that are due (and they are due to you) really niggles me and causes me more anguish and upset than the actual figures involved. I imagine it does to all owners of businesses especially when they themselves have done the work rather than an employee.
I not have little hesitation in taking or threatening court action to recover ANY commission due. Its a matter of principle and my sanity. Stuff the money. I
Write a 7 day letter for full payment, on the 8th day start small claims proceedings. You will feel so much better about it. stuff the money, if you win good, if you dont then fine, you have run the course of action and stood up for what you beleived was right and correct, it also will hopefully give this client a bit of a nuisance and may not do it again to others.
Hit them hard and fast - sledge hammer to break a nut. works for me where people owe me money - as they dont!
Bottom line. Taking her to court isnt worth my time. I'll be loosing out actually if I spend another 5 minutes dealing with it. A few more hours is out of the question. I want to wash my hands of it and walk. But Im struggling to let go, as I always do this, and always loose out, and always leave myself feeling like a lazy coward when it comes to knuckling down and taking people to court, to win back what Im rightfully entitled to.
Edited by UKBob on Wednesday 7th June 14:01
What a ball breaker!
Why not go to some lengths to over-state the seriousness of the one thing that needs changing - yes it's an easy £60 fix but that doesn't mean it doesn't have potential to cause catastrophic problems for her.
Of course you can't start work on the £60 fix until the small matter of the outstanding payment for the site analysis is resolved.
Just a thought, of course it depends on what has been said thus far regarding the small error.
Why not go to some lengths to over-state the seriousness of the one thing that needs changing - yes it's an easy £60 fix but that doesn't mean it doesn't have potential to cause catastrophic problems for her.
Of course you can't start work on the £60 fix until the small matter of the outstanding payment for the site analysis is resolved.
Just a thought, of course it depends on what has been said thus far regarding the small error.
_dobbo_ said:
What a ball breaker!
Why not go to some lengths to over-state the seriousness of the one thing that needs changing - yes it's an easy £60 fix but that doesn't mean it doesn't have potential to cause catastrophic problems for her.
Of course you can't start work on the £60 fix until the small matter of the outstanding payment for the site analysis is resolved.
Just a thought, of course it depends on what has been said thus far regarding the small error.
90% of my clients cant afford the prices I feel we are worth, so I often give discounts - And I need to, as 90% of my clients are small businesses, thats supply and demand. That said, she knows the score, and Id rather be honest with her and hope she was honest with me. But I made it plain I wouldnt be offering any further services (as she did in writing) when communication broke down. Why not go to some lengths to over-state the seriousness of the one thing that needs changing - yes it's an easy £60 fix but that doesn't mean it doesn't have potential to cause catastrophic problems for her.
Of course you can't start work on the £60 fix until the small matter of the outstanding payment for the site analysis is resolved.
Just a thought, of course it depends on what has been said thus far regarding the small error.
Communication broke down when she announced she was selling her business and didnt intend to pay... all in the same breath.
UKBob said:
Although I have her instructions to start work in writing, and she has my friendly warning (in writing) that its hourS worth of work, I cant help but wonder how the law would view the situation.
Surely she's as much on the back foot as you are - she instructed you to go ahead, but without checking the price? You could just invoice her at whatever fantastic sum you think of.
Could you pursue this through Money Claim Online?
She obviously has done this before. I run a debt recovery firm www.debtrecovery.tv (hang on its not a sales ploy) we will happily take on your case FREE OF CHARGE (save any legal fees for court action that you may decide to take) And hopefully teach her a lesson.
Seriously we will not charge you a penny if we collect (other phers do not bombard us with sob stories this is a one off)
I am sick and tired of people taking the p1ss out of companies that provide legit services. Let us scare the living daylights out of her.
Seriously we will not charge you a penny if we collect (other phers do not bombard us with sob stories this is a one off)
I am sick and tired of people taking the p1ss out of companies that provide legit services. Let us scare the living daylights out of her.
jamesuk28 said:
She obviously has done this before. I run a debt recovery firm www.debtrecovery.tv (hang on its not a sales ploy) we will happily take on your case FREE OF CHARGE (save any legal fees for court action that you may decide to take) And hopefully teach her a lesson.
Seriously we will not charge you a penny if we collect (other phers do not bombard us with sob stories this is a one off)
I am sick and tired of people taking the p1ss out of companies that provide legit services. Let us scare the living daylights out of her.
Thanks James, that sounds great. YHM! Seriously we will not charge you a penny if we collect (other phers do not bombard us with sob stories this is a one off)
I am sick and tired of people taking the p1ss out of companies that provide legit services. Let us scare the living daylights out of her.
superlightr said:
thats a kind offer - I would take it up. Try the legal course on this occasion. - you will feel better even if you dont get any money. (bet you will get something)
I think I need to get my hands dirty, and try something. I keep saying I will make an effort in this regard but never do when the time comes round.as has been said before she never intended to pay - I've just finished helping another small design company out of exactly the same problem.
Legally you have no leg to stand on really - as utterly unfair as that may seem. The courts will have no choice but to conclude that due to a lack of clarity of discourse....and the fact that she cannot be expected to understand 'tricky technical issues'.....that she isn't entirely liable.
She sounds like scum - I'd wreck the software and then never communicate with her again....much more satisfying!
I think James' offer is v generous and by far your best bet here
Legally you have no leg to stand on really - as utterly unfair as that may seem. The courts will have no choice but to conclude that due to a lack of clarity of discourse....and the fact that she cannot be expected to understand 'tricky technical issues'.....that she isn't entirely liable.
She sounds like scum - I'd wreck the software and then never communicate with her again....much more satisfying!
I think James' offer is v generous and by far your best bet here
nightmare said:
as has been said before she never intended to pay - I've just finished helping another small design company out of exactly the same problem.
Legally you have no leg to stand on really - as utterly unfair as that may seem. The courts will have no choice but to conclude that due to a lack of clarity of discourse....and the fact that she cannot be expected to understand 'tricky technical issues'.....that she isn't entirely liable.
She sounds like scum - I'd wreck the software and then never communicate with her again....much more satisfying!
I think James' offer is v generous and by far your best bet here
I have bigger court cases which I will get round to starting (he says) but this little tiddler... so, if I dont go to court, how can a debt collector buy the debt, if legally I cant be seen as in the right. Couldnt she sue me, for putting a debt collector onto her, when legally or otherwise she is seen in the eyes of the law not to have done anything wrong?Legally you have no leg to stand on really - as utterly unfair as that may seem. The courts will have no choice but to conclude that due to a lack of clarity of discourse....and the fact that she cannot be expected to understand 'tricky technical issues'.....that she isn't entirely liable.
She sounds like scum - I'd wreck the software and then never communicate with her again....much more satisfying!
I think James' offer is v generous and by far your best bet here
nightmare said:
as has been said before she never intended to pay - I've just finished helping another small design company out of exactly the same problem.
Legally you have no leg to stand on really - as utterly unfair as that may seem. The courts will have no choice but to conclude that due to a lack of clarity of discourse....and the fact that she cannot be expected to understand 'tricky technical issues'.....that she isn't entirely liable.
She sounds like scum - I'd wreck the software and then never communicate with her again....much more satisfying!
I think James' offer is v generous and by far your best bet here
Legally you have no leg to stand on really - as utterly unfair as that may seem. The courts will have no choice but to conclude that due to a lack of clarity of discourse....and the fact that she cannot be expected to understand 'tricky technical issues'.....that she isn't entirely liable.
She sounds like scum - I'd wreck the software and then never communicate with her again....much more satisfying!
I think James' offer is v generous and by far your best bet here
I think he Does have a leg to stand on, and would argue it in court. Bet it wont get that far - most will pay up when they receive a summons.
At least issue a summons.....
superlightr said:
At least issue a summons.....
But she is not worth it. Its peanuts. Ive got to take someone to court for literally 50 times more money, and am struggling to find the time to start preparing that case and find myself avoiding it at every turn.
She is also a hardliner. The kind who is not afraid of a summons, and will go to court to fight over a fiver.
Grrr... Just as many 'cowboy customers' out there as 'cowboy trades'.
It doesn't happen often to me thankfuly but when it does, the principle is important to me and in this case, I'd have probably issued a sall claim online at moneyclaim in the knowledge that even if I lost, it would still have buggered up her day to deal with it & possibly made the sale of the biz more difficult.
I might also have removed the site from its hosting pending resolution although that's a little legally suspect - although if she never paid the original developer (warning sign there!) then it's not hers anyway is it? I presume you still have the ftp details? Just pull it - if she's never paid for it then how can she complain?
Alternatively, a suitable letter from a debt collector can also have a suitable effect on the recipient's lower bowel.
It doesn't happen often to me thankfuly but when it does, the principle is important to me and in this case, I'd have probably issued a sall claim online at moneyclaim in the knowledge that even if I lost, it would still have buggered up her day to deal with it & possibly made the sale of the biz more difficult.
I might also have removed the site from its hosting pending resolution although that's a little legally suspect - although if she never paid the original developer (warning sign there!) then it's not hers anyway is it? I presume you still have the ftp details? Just pull it - if she's never paid for it then how can she complain?
Alternatively, a suitable letter from a debt collector can also have a suitable effect on the recipient's lower bowel.
Pot Bellied Fool said:
I might also have removed the site from its hosting pending resolution although that's a little legally suspect - although if she never paid the original developer (warning sign there!) then it's not hers anyway is it? I presume you still have the ftp details? Just pull it - if she's never paid for it then how can she complain?
Think this bit needs emphasising. Get in touch with the original developer and share notes. She doesn't own the code for the site if she hasn't paid for it. If she has no intention of paying then she has no claim to it whatsoever and she should not be allowed to use it. That should throw a spanner in her works.
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