Appraisals and getting the best out of them
Discussion
Evening All,
Bit of background:
Been at the company since June last year. Brought in as a Sales Development Executive. I work on behalf of an external Client who buys our sales services off us. I report to the Account Manager who also looks after a couple of Clients.
Changes since i've joined:
Company has been taken over, no day to day changes but the way the bonus is paid has (instead of quarterly payments) its now a yearly one based on company performace (5,6,7 or 8%). So I can't really affect how much my bonus will be (or if i'll get it) as the company is quite large
Other changes have been that the programme has really taken off so instead of their being one permanent head (me!), we now have 2 others targeting countries in Europe. These are both temp's with the view to taking them on permanently. My role now covers UK and the other countries in EMEA these two don't cover, as well as managing them on a daily basis (work load, queries etc).
They still report to my Line Manager in regards to holidays, signing off timesheets etc. I'm covering more of the non "Sales" bits of the programme - Giving the Client new ideas, developing them once we have approval - re Campaign Planning etc.
So to my real question...... My Performance Review is due any time now and i'd like to ask for a change in job title to show some progression in the role, eg Sales Supervisor or something along those lines. This is mainly to put on my CV to show some development in myself and the role (i'm at the very start of my career as i'm only 24). I'd obviously like the change in job title to be reflected with a pay rise?
Now the issue is that my line manager is going away at the end of the month as has told me i'll be acting Account Manager and that it is my time to shine.... So do I wait until after he gets back before asking about pay rises etc (Hopefully after i've proved i'm more than capable of doing the job) or do I ask before he goes away.
He has mentioned to me about doing some training courses when he gets back so he obviously has an idea of what areas he wants me to develop into so i'm don't want to jepodise this by asking for what will only be a promotion on a piece of paper.
So really what I want to know is how do I approach this appraisal, i've never asked for a payrise before and I don't want to bite the hand that feeds it!
We're looking to buy a house at the end of the year so the more money I can earn before then the better!
Am I living on Cloud Cuckoo land or do you think it is a reasonable request?
Regards and Many Thanks,
Phill
Bit of background:
Been at the company since June last year. Brought in as a Sales Development Executive. I work on behalf of an external Client who buys our sales services off us. I report to the Account Manager who also looks after a couple of Clients.
Changes since i've joined:
Company has been taken over, no day to day changes but the way the bonus is paid has (instead of quarterly payments) its now a yearly one based on company performace (5,6,7 or 8%). So I can't really affect how much my bonus will be (or if i'll get it) as the company is quite large
Other changes have been that the programme has really taken off so instead of their being one permanent head (me!), we now have 2 others targeting countries in Europe. These are both temp's with the view to taking them on permanently. My role now covers UK and the other countries in EMEA these two don't cover, as well as managing them on a daily basis (work load, queries etc).
They still report to my Line Manager in regards to holidays, signing off timesheets etc. I'm covering more of the non "Sales" bits of the programme - Giving the Client new ideas, developing them once we have approval - re Campaign Planning etc.
So to my real question...... My Performance Review is due any time now and i'd like to ask for a change in job title to show some progression in the role, eg Sales Supervisor or something along those lines. This is mainly to put on my CV to show some development in myself and the role (i'm at the very start of my career as i'm only 24). I'd obviously like the change in job title to be reflected with a pay rise?
Now the issue is that my line manager is going away at the end of the month as has told me i'll be acting Account Manager and that it is my time to shine.... So do I wait until after he gets back before asking about pay rises etc (Hopefully after i've proved i'm more than capable of doing the job) or do I ask before he goes away.
He has mentioned to me about doing some training courses when he gets back so he obviously has an idea of what areas he wants me to develop into so i'm don't want to jepodise this by asking for what will only be a promotion on a piece of paper.
So really what I want to know is how do I approach this appraisal, i've never asked for a payrise before and I don't want to bite the hand that feeds it!
We're looking to buy a house at the end of the year so the more money I can earn before then the better!
Am I living on Cloud Cuckoo land or do you think it is a reasonable request?
Regards and Many Thanks,
Phill
Edited by pmanson on Monday 5th February 18:41
my 2p.........
i would definately not say you want a change of title for your CV. says to me that you are on your way to greener grass so to speak. not good for an employer looking to invest in you.
your boss may have worked out a payrise for you, and i would wait until near the end if they havent brought it up then you could broach the subject.
i wouldnt go in hand out wanting more, but be prepared that if you do need to justify what you have done and why you are worth more to them you can do that confidently. from your post it looks like you have a case.
they have got to realise that you want to (if you do) help build their company and their bottom line, asking for a change of title for your CV is bad news.
good luck with it though.
i would definately not say you want a change of title for your CV. says to me that you are on your way to greener grass so to speak. not good for an employer looking to invest in you.
your boss may have worked out a payrise for you, and i would wait until near the end if they havent brought it up then you could broach the subject.
i wouldnt go in hand out wanting more, but be prepared that if you do need to justify what you have done and why you are worth more to them you can do that confidently. from your post it looks like you have a case.
they have got to realise that you want to (if you do) help build their company and their bottom line, asking for a change of title for your CV is bad news.
good luck with it though.
Thanks Lee,
I suppose I was thinking it was worth a change in title in the longer term (5-10 years) but then again its not a huge change in title and like you say not worth making them think I want to move on.
I'm very happy with the job as I really enjoy it (not keen on being on the phone but apart from that its great) and a recent office move has really benefitted me.
I think i'll play it by ear like you say. I'm quite looking forward to it.
Phill
I suppose I was thinking it was worth a change in title in the longer term (5-10 years) but then again its not a huge change in title and like you say not worth making them think I want to move on.
I'm very happy with the job as I really enjoy it (not keen on being on the phone but apart from that its great) and a recent office move has really benefitted me.
I think i'll play it by ear like you say. I'm quite looking forward to it.
Phill
ive said before on here about them on the other appraisal thread. i have it from both sides of the table, and they are, i think a good thing.
you may not like everything you hear, but you should also be realistic. Depending on your relationship with your bosses, tell them about your house plans, im about a year ahead of you thats all. it helped me to be brutally honest. meant longer hours, more responsability, and you will get more crap, but if you take it on the chin, keep out of office politics and prove your worth you will do alright.
it all depends where you wanna be with the company you are with now, is it long term? if so build the foundations, if not, then find somewhere that is and dont waste time over it.
bit of a rant that, sorry
you may not like everything you hear, but you should also be realistic. Depending on your relationship with your bosses, tell them about your house plans, im about a year ahead of you thats all. it helped me to be brutally honest. meant longer hours, more responsability, and you will get more crap, but if you take it on the chin, keep out of office politics and prove your worth you will do alright.
it all depends where you wanna be with the company you are with now, is it long term? if so build the foundations, if not, then find somewhere that is and dont waste time over it.
bit of a rant that, sorry
leeb said:
ive said before on here about them on the other appraisal thread. i have it from both sides of the table, and they are, i think a good thing.
Had them before I really rate them as well. I had one about 3 months ago with this company and it allowed me to put some focus into certain areas and up my game
leeb said:
you may not like everything you hear, but you should also be realistic. Depending on your relationship with your bosses, tell them about your house plans, im about a year ahead of you thats all. it helped me to be brutally honest. meant longer hours, more responsability, and you will get more crap, but if you take it on the chin, keep out of office politics and prove your worth you will do alright.
I'm more than willing to put the hours in, i'm a true beliver in you get out what you put in! Looking forward to more responsibility as the rewards are greater!
leeb said:
it all depends where you wanna be with the company you are with now, is it long term? if so build the foundations, if not, then find somewhere that is and dont waste time over it.
Originally I thought a max of 3 years but really getting stuck into it now and enjoying it. Now we've been taken over there are more opportunities to progress in the longer term as well, that with the office only being a couple of miles down the road means I'm looking longer term now!
leeb said:
bit of a rant that, sorry
No problem! Thanks for your help!
Like others I have handled appraisals from both sides. I always used to tell my staff to keep a record of the good things you do through the year, the projects they participated in and were they have provided value. Bring that information to the appraisal, and use it show performance. In that way it would be far easier for me to justify any pay increases and have the relevant ammunition to approach senior management with. On the flip side I would also keep records of good and bad things, these had to be real events not opinions, that could be discussed at appraisal time. In your case I would do the same, and appraoch your boss after his holiday. It is much easier to get your renumeration revalued when you have shown results. One of my staff once asked for a pay rise 6 months before the start of a project because of the work they were going to be doing..............they didn't get it....
On the apprasial point at all depends on how the company uses this? Soem its just another hoop to jump thorugh to get a brass plaque on the was for IiP status. Others use this as it should be in there staff developmetn process.
I changed jobs 15 months ago due to the Appraisal process being a complete pile of cr4p at my last company, where they refused my a payrise and a paper promotion.
The new company i work for are more open and they have distint targets to achieve for each grade. We ahd to give ourselves a self appraisal which we went though with our line manager ticking off all the things that apply to the current grade to say they have been achived or you are doing that in your role on a regular basis. This opened up the channel of comparing you for the next grade up, and for this you had to demostrate what you have been doing in the last 6 months and how this furthered your development and you were actually working at a higher level on a regular basis, needless to say it was accepted and i achieved a payrise and a paper promotion.
How do the company operate is it a jump hoop exercise to get anywhere or do they use reasoned arguments as justification for doing certain things.
I changed jobs 15 months ago due to the Appraisal process being a complete pile of cr4p at my last company, where they refused my a payrise and a paper promotion.
The new company i work for are more open and they have distint targets to achieve for each grade. We ahd to give ourselves a self appraisal which we went though with our line manager ticking off all the things that apply to the current grade to say they have been achived or you are doing that in your role on a regular basis. This opened up the channel of comparing you for the next grade up, and for this you had to demostrate what you have been doing in the last 6 months and how this furthered your development and you were actually working at a higher level on a regular basis, needless to say it was accepted and i achieved a payrise and a paper promotion.
How do the company operate is it a jump hoop exercise to get anywhere or do they use reasoned arguments as justification for doing certain things.
Leftie said:
Offering to take on new responsibilities is also a good lever for a payrise or paper promotion. Helps prevent discord with those who dodn't get it as you are doing something for it.
Thats the route i'm going down. I'm taking on a lot more of the operational side of the role from my Line Manager which i'm really enjoying.
I really enjoy all the campaign planning (as that ties in with my PRINCE2 qualification and previous roles) it's just the lead generation that I don't like - I hate being on the phone!
The good thing about the job is that i'm pretty much left to get on with it as I see fit and my line manager acts as a mentor and helps me out as and when I need it.
I train people in performance management. Looks like you're in a good place. Take the extra responsibility, do the training, show just what you can do, build a portfolio of success. Then talk about job descriptions, titles and pay. The company will value you more when you have proved you have skills to value.
Hi mate,
In my role one of the key points I teach is on 100% open and honest communication. If you have a reasonable level of rapport with your line manager why not just have a conversation? Discuss your concerns and wishes up front and come to some sort of agreement.
I know it sound a little simple, but hey, as humans we like to over complicate and sometimes it pays to take the simple approach.
You'll feel better and more than likely he'll/she'll respect you for your integrity, willingness and confidence.
Rob.
In my role one of the key points I teach is on 100% open and honest communication. If you have a reasonable level of rapport with your line manager why not just have a conversation? Discuss your concerns and wishes up front and come to some sort of agreement.
I know it sound a little simple, but hey, as humans we like to over complicate and sometimes it pays to take the simple approach.
You'll feel better and more than likely he'll/she'll respect you for your integrity, willingness and confidence.
Rob.
Ok had my review and it went very well!
Not had got a payrise or an official promotion but the Client is being told (officially) i'm now heading up the small team that I currently run.
My line Manager is also going on holiday so i'm taking over some of his operational responsbilities for his team (of which i'm a small part) while he's away - This has caused a bit of a stir but i'm not complaining!
We didn't spend much time on my review on performance in the last few months as they are happy with my performance, we spent more time on the plan for the next year(s).
Things are looking good! I think the pay reviews are in April so I hope I can get a raise then.
One thing I did do was use the planning form to plan what I wanted to say/get out of it. This seemed to go down well and also allowed me to get through all my points.
Thanks for all your advice!
Phill
Not had got a payrise or an official promotion but the Client is being told (officially) i'm now heading up the small team that I currently run.
My line Manager is also going on holiday so i'm taking over some of his operational responsbilities for his team (of which i'm a small part) while he's away - This has caused a bit of a stir but i'm not complaining!
We didn't spend much time on my review on performance in the last few months as they are happy with my performance, we spent more time on the plan for the next year(s).
Things are looking good! I think the pay reviews are in April so I hope I can get a raise then.
One thing I did do was use the planning form to plan what I wanted to say/get out of it. This seemed to go down well and also allowed me to get through all my points.
Thanks for all your advice!
Phill
good effort mate,
sounds like you approached it just right.
get your head down, work hard and smart, and make an impression for when he gets back.
an idea may be to make notes for yourself as to how each day goes, good points, things you werent sure of, then when he is back ask to call a meeting with him and the main decision makers, go through your reports (briefly) ask questions about how you handled things, and discuss the future, and bring up the point that you are looking to get a gaff of your own but cant afford it... not quite in them words.
this will show a bit of forward thinking, planning and initiative as well as help you to deal with things and show you are trustworthy and willing to learn.
(apologies for all the cliches in there)
good luck mate
lee
sounds like you approached it just right.
get your head down, work hard and smart, and make an impression for when he gets back.
an idea may be to make notes for yourself as to how each day goes, good points, things you werent sure of, then when he is back ask to call a meeting with him and the main decision makers, go through your reports (briefly) ask questions about how you handled things, and discuss the future, and bring up the point that you are looking to get a gaff of your own but cant afford it... not quite in them words.
this will show a bit of forward thinking, planning and initiative as well as help you to deal with things and show you are trustworthy and willing to learn.
(apologies for all the cliches in there)
good luck mate
lee
leeb said:
good effort mate,
sounds like you approached it just right.
get your head down, work hard and smart, and make an impression for when he gets back.
an idea may be to make notes for yourself as to how each day goes, good points, things you werent sure of, then when he is back ask to call a meeting with him and the main decision makers, go through your reports (briefly) ask questions about how you handled things, and discuss the future, and bring up the point that you are looking to get a gaff of your own but cant afford it... not quite in them words.
this will show a bit of forward thinking, planning and initiative as well as help you to deal with things and show you are trustworthy and willing to learn.
(apologies for all the cliches in there)
good luck mate
lee
sounds like you approached it just right.
get your head down, work hard and smart, and make an impression for when he gets back.
an idea may be to make notes for yourself as to how each day goes, good points, things you werent sure of, then when he is back ask to call a meeting with him and the main decision makers, go through your reports (briefly) ask questions about how you handled things, and discuss the future, and bring up the point that you are looking to get a gaff of your own but cant afford it... not quite in them words.
this will show a bit of forward thinking, planning and initiative as well as help you to deal with things and show you are trustworthy and willing to learn.
(apologies for all the cliches in there)
good luck mate
lee
Hi Lee... Now what do I do...
Kept a record of what happened while my Boss was away which he was impressed with - apparently all the other feedback he recieved from the other members of the management team when he returned was excellent as well. All good so far.... well no....
The Client has brought in a new member to his team (nice guy) but is view is that I shouldn't have all the additional responsbilities that I have, as its diverting me away from the lead generation side of the job. It's a fair point but it's all the other parts of the job (writing proposals, liasing with the developers etc) that I actually enjoy. I can't stand the lead generation part of the role. I was also enjoying gaining the experience of Account Management that I need to go up the corporate chain!
I also have a new Boss internally who again is very nice bloke but he's so busy that I don't get the same level of interaction with him as I used to with my old Boss (i don't need my hand holding but i'm at the stage of my career when any feedback I recieve is really useful!)
In our office its such a big jump from my role upto management level that I was trying to get as much account experience as possible without actually being an account manager.
Top it all off according to the Management hierarchy thats been released i've been officially promoted but no it's more "window dressing" aragh. It's also payreview month but I doubt i'll get the payrise I want - my Boss was surprised when I told him how much I was getting paid as he thought it was more (and the standard payrises won't even take me upto the level he thought I was getting paid!)
All in all i'm now feeling very demotivated!
Phill
erm, far from it being my place for me to tell you what to do mate, i can only offer advice based on my experience and how i would approach things if i were in that situation. i can offer my POV but this is not necessarily the answer.
based on what you have said, this seems to be the problem
The Client has brought in a new member to his team (nice guy) but is view is that I shouldn't have all the additional responsbilities that I have, as its diverting me away from the lead generation side of the job. It's a fair point but it's all the other parts of the job (writing proposals, liasing with the developers etc) that I actually enjoy. I can't stand the lead generation part of the role. I was also enjoying gaining the experience of Account Management that I need to go up the corporate chain!
without totally understanding your market and work its difficult to say, does your client call the shots with the structure of your company? this is the bit im not getting?
i think that you need to sit down and be brutally honest with your management, go in well planned and explain that you feel you have handled the step up in responsability and work load well, you have enjoyed the challenges etc and you need to work out what is happening as you are currently unsure of your position and what they want from you. is there anyone else that can do the lead generation, and ideally who is better than you at it, thus making it a strong case to pass that side of it over, free'ing you up to do your other duties.
it would make a lot of sence to have people doing what they are good at, and are enjoying rather than feeling pissed off and not wanting to know.
difficult one to figure out without really understanding your market to be honest. hope there is something in there that helps though mate.
Lee
based on what you have said, this seems to be the problem
pmanson said:
The Client has brought in a new member to his team (nice guy) but is view is that I shouldn't have all the additional responsbilities that I have, as its diverting me away from the lead generation side of the job. It's a fair point but it's all the other parts of the job (writing proposals, liasing with the developers etc) that I actually enjoy. I can't stand the lead generation part of the role. I was also enjoying gaining the experience of Account Management that I need to go up the corporate chain!
without totally understanding your market and work its difficult to say, does your client call the shots with the structure of your company? this is the bit im not getting?
i think that you need to sit down and be brutally honest with your management, go in well planned and explain that you feel you have handled the step up in responsability and work load well, you have enjoyed the challenges etc and you need to work out what is happening as you are currently unsure of your position and what they want from you. is there anyone else that can do the lead generation, and ideally who is better than you at it, thus making it a strong case to pass that side of it over, free'ing you up to do your other duties.
it would make a lot of sence to have people doing what they are good at, and are enjoying rather than feeling pissed off and not wanting to know.
difficult one to figure out without really understanding your market to be honest. hope there is something in there that helps though mate.
Lee
Lee,
I'll drop you an email in the next couple of days explaining what I do - i'd rather keep it off forum.
I'm at an exhibition for the next couple of days but should get a chance to drop you a quick email. I'd be interested to hear what you think.
I did have a meeting booked with our HR Director for tommorrow to get some career advice but i've had to cancel this due to the show.
Thanks again for all your advice.
Phill
I'll drop you an email in the next couple of days explaining what I do - i'd rather keep it off forum.
I'm at an exhibition for the next couple of days but should get a chance to drop you a quick email. I'd be interested to hear what you think.
I did have a meeting booked with our HR Director for tommorrow to get some career advice but i've had to cancel this due to the show.
Thanks again for all your advice.
Phill
Its good to see that you have been recording your achivements, something I will be doing from now on. But something I do and would advise you to do is take a record of what you were promised at your review, and make sure you get it. All the changes you have seen could take the focus off your personal development.
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