Discussion
Don't you love 'em?
I had one from a tender web site yesterday, looked a possiblity but the web call for tenders was so vague so as to be worthless with no information on what they wanted done etc. Emailed them and they sent me the tender doc, which basically was littered with references to previous work done by one of their pet suppliers, including references to databases that they held which would almost certainly be required for the work. Deadline was just over 2 weeks away and the call came out yesterday. Loads of web links to sites to obtain documents, plans etc. No chance that I can get the information I need via their pet supplier (even though public money paid for it), collate all the web sites and do the tender in the time available. I am thinking the pet suplier already has a tender written.
I just wish they'd say that they have a preferred supplier and have done with it instead of making us all jump through hoops and waste time/money when nobody else is in with a look in.
I had one from a tender web site yesterday, looked a possiblity but the web call for tenders was so vague so as to be worthless with no information on what they wanted done etc. Emailed them and they sent me the tender doc, which basically was littered with references to previous work done by one of their pet suppliers, including references to databases that they held which would almost certainly be required for the work. Deadline was just over 2 weeks away and the call came out yesterday. Loads of web links to sites to obtain documents, plans etc. No chance that I can get the information I need via their pet supplier (even though public money paid for it), collate all the web sites and do the tender in the time available. I am thinking the pet suplier already has a tender written.
I just wish they'd say that they have a preferred supplier and have done with it instead of making us all jump through hoops and waste time/money when nobody else is in with a look in.
This is typical of Government. These tenders are 'just going through the motion' to give the public the impression that it's fair competition when in fact the decision has already been made.
I've wasted my time on several tenders including the central government Catalyst framework and never won anything. This is despite Tony's & Gordon's claim that they want to make Government more accessible to SME's, however my experience is that it's always the same faces that win the bids!
Oh well, I don't think any of us will every change this attitude, so we just need to target business you can win.
I've wasted my time on several tenders including the central government Catalyst framework and never won anything. This is despite Tony's & Gordon's claim that they want to make Government more accessible to SME's, however my experience is that it's always the same faces that win the bids!
Oh well, I don't think any of us will every change this attitude, so we just need to target business you can win.
flyingjase said:
This is typical of Government. These tenders are 'just going through the motion' to give the public the impression that it's fair competition when in fact the decision has already been made.
I've wasted my time on several tenders including the central government Catalyst framework and never won anything. This is despite Tony's & Gordon's claim that they want to make Government more accessible to SME's, however my experience is that it's always the same faces that win the bids!
Oh well, I don't think any of us will every change this attitude, so we just need to target business you can win.
I've wasted my time on several tenders including the central government Catalyst framework and never won anything. This is despite Tony's & Gordon's claim that they want to make Government more accessible to SME's, however my experience is that it's always the same faces that win the bids!
Oh well, I don't think any of us will every change this attitude, so we just need to target business you can win.
The oddest thing was that the tender specified us detailing our experience in one particular area, when nobody who ever leaves the house would have specific experience inthat area. The pet supplier of course did, they have a dedicated team of 'Mum's back bedroom' people. I think they draw up the specs to suit who they want to do the work.
Having said that, a few years ago as a one man band I did successfully win a decent contract against all the pet suppliers by being completely different and there being afast stream civil servant in chrage who clearly wanted to switch from the 'usual suspects'.
Even though I worked in one Govt. dept. where such 'select' lists existed and I know their systems I still cannot get a look in, despite registering as a supplier several years ago and seeing contract after contract going to preferred institutions. They haven't even invited me to tender, and go to a select list of 2 or 3 London universities every time.
Leftie - without knowing the ins and outs of what you do etc, I might (or may well not be!) in a position to help you with regards to your bids.
Drop me an e-mail (for some reason I'm apparently not allowed to send e-mail on here!) and we can have a chat in case I can be of any help.
Drop me an e-mail (for some reason I'm apparently not allowed to send e-mail on here!) and we can have a chat in case I can be of any help.
Leftie said:
Don't you love 'em
Its swings and roundabouts... Yes it is annoying when tenders some out and it is clearly geared towards a competitor. It has happened to me a few times... but...
I tend to find you have basically won or lost before the tender comes out. Getting in with consultants or plying the customer with all of your good ideas/trials/freebes will mean you could be the said supplier with the perfect tender.
Even in your situation, go in as a lost leader with a 'lite' version, get through the door and then make your money back elsewhere. We do it all the time.
Just seen a tender on a web site: right up our street but perhaps a bit too big for us, as they clearly have a thing with sub contracting. By chance talking to a competitor: they had had a letter from the Govt. Dept. pointing out the tender to them! They have also droped the full PQQ back to just the busines end: financial stability and capability, so obviously angled at the bigger firms. They may as well say: 'no small companies need apply'.
Stuff them, I'll do the PQQ anyway just to make them read it and get our name on the table.
Edited by Leftie on Friday 2nd March 17:39
Lovely one this week: they have emailed me changing the spec 4 times on a tender, and now say that they want a turnover to annual contract value ratio of at least 3x, so about £900,000 PA.
I also have to find policies on just about everything politically correct, 3 years of accounts and client references.
No wonder small businesses don't bother and the HMG end up paying through the nose for companies with massive overheads to do it.
Unfortunately Leftie, that's the way these things work - have you got any opportunities to collaborate with other smaller companies in your field? (or even do the opportunities allow that?)
With respect to your competitor being advised of the opportunity coming out in advance, are they an incumbent or similar? At the end of the day that's what the networking in advance of the bid is for if you're able to do it.
For example, I've been chasing an opportunity for over a year now, and the OJEU should come out in the next month which I have our bid manager scanning for. However I have been talking to this authority (albeit not as closely as I would have liked) and they are now telling me they are taking their approach to this types of service, rather than procuring lots of individual service lines which would mean we wouldn't apply.
Sorry if there's an element of egg-sucking going on, but that's the world as I see it so to speak!
David
With respect to your competitor being advised of the opportunity coming out in advance, are they an incumbent or similar? At the end of the day that's what the networking in advance of the bid is for if you're able to do it.
For example, I've been chasing an opportunity for over a year now, and the OJEU should come out in the next month which I have our bid manager scanning for. However I have been talking to this authority (albeit not as closely as I would have liked) and they are now telling me they are taking their approach to this types of service, rather than procuring lots of individual service lines which would mean we wouldn't apply.
Sorry if there's an element of egg-sucking going on, but that's the world as I see it so to speak!
David
muppetdave said:
Unfortunately Leftie, that's the way these things work - have you got any opportunities to collaborate with other smaller companies in your field? (or even do the opportunities allow that?)
With respect to your competitor being advised of the opportunity coming out in advance, are they an incumbent or similar? At the end of the day that's what the networking in advance of the bid is for if you're able to do it.
For example, I've been chasing an opportunity for over a year now, and the OJEU should come out in the next month which I have our bid manager scanning for. However I have been talking to this authority (albeit not as closely as I would have liked) and they are now telling me they are taking their approach to this types of service, rather than procuring lots of individual service lines which would mean we wouldn't apply.
Sorry if there's an element of egg-sucking going on, but that's the world as I see it so to speak!
David
With respect to your competitor being advised of the opportunity coming out in advance, are they an incumbent or similar? At the end of the day that's what the networking in advance of the bid is for if you're able to do it.
For example, I've been chasing an opportunity for over a year now, and the OJEU should come out in the next month which I have our bid manager scanning for. However I have been talking to this authority (albeit not as closely as I would have liked) and they are now telling me they are taking their approach to this types of service, rather than procuring lots of individual service lines which would mean we wouldn't apply.
Sorry if there's an element of egg-sucking going on, but that's the world as I see it so to speak!
David
I can see why they would want a larger contractor (stability), but in our sector 65% of people are small self employed providers who frankly don't get a chance at the larger contracts because of this 'preferred supplier' 'single tender with an existing provider' and application of a 'turnover ratio'. The big companies didn't have these kind of restrictions when they were trying to grow.
They will accept consortium bids but then require all the account and policy information on all partners, which mutiplies up the work (not to mention the fact that we are generally competitors and disclosing turnover, profit and costs to each other probably won't go down too well!).
I think perhaps the best we could do is get together, get a pack of documents done (ie one EO policy).
I dont want to sound anoying but... tenders are won long before the PIN or pre-qual.
Get in there, put yourself about, talk to the guy putting the tender together and use your charm to convince him you are the best man for the job. Do it again and again until he is inviting you around his house for dinner and sharing his children. After that you will be plesently surprised when the tender is written for you!
The alternative - answering a tender cold - means you are probably waisting your time.
Get in there, put yourself about, talk to the guy putting the tender together and use your charm to convince him you are the best man for the job. Do it again and again until he is inviting you around his house for dinner and sharing his children. After that you will be plesently surprised when the tender is written for you!
The alternative - answering a tender cold - means you are probably waisting your time.
Leftie said:
I can see why they would want a larger contractor (stability), but in our sector 65% of people are small self employed providers who frankly don't get a chance at the larger contracts because of this 'preferred supplier' 'single tender with an existing provider' and application of a 'turnover ratio'. The big companies didn't have these kind of restrictions when they were trying to grow.
They will accept consortium bids but then require all the account and policy information on all partners, which mutiplies up the work (not to mention the fact that we are generally competitors and disclosing turnover, profit and costs to each other probably won't go down too well!).
I think perhaps the best we could do is get together, get a pack of documents done (ie one EO policy).
I'll happily assist in this if necessary. I think you should still have my e-mail address if you want me to help. You should be able to pull this together from other companies documentation if you can gain access to it.
From what I've seen of your business through your website etc, it all seems pretty good. I know this may sound crass and I'm sure you've already done this, but can you look at smaller contracts elsewhere in order to build further credibility/size? Or indeed could you look to work with one of the larger bidders as a 'sub-contractor' rather than form an alliance with other competitors?
Again, sorry if I sound like I'm preaching!
Nb. I agree with V8 EOL's comments regarding get in their faces almost. Yes be the first person they want to call when things go wrong with their incumbent. But DON'T think all is lost if you go in cold on a tender. At my old company we did this regularly - the board disapproved me going for the bid and got the MD to price it at a ridiculous margin. However we really won the client and stakeholders over and subsequently won one of the highest margin contracts the business (£150.0M T/o) has ever had!
muppetdave said:
But DON'T think all is lost if you go in cold on a tender. At my old company we did this regularly - the board disapproved me going for the bid and got the MD to price it at a ridiculous margin. However we really won the client and stakeholders over and subsequently won one of the highest margin contracts the business (£150.0M T/o) has ever had!
Agreed. Foot in the door and so on. Go in low (or at a loss) and aim to re-coup over the following year. Ditto the experiance with this... you can get underneath a real cash cow this way. V8 EOL said:
muppetdave said:
But DON'T think all is lost if you go in cold on a tender. At my old company we did this regularly - the board disapproved me going for the bid and got the MD to price it at a ridiculous margin. However we really won the client and stakeholders over and subsequently won one of the highest margin contracts the business (£150.0M T/o) has ever had!
Agreed. Foot in the door and so on. Go in low (or at a loss) and aim to re-coup over the following year. Ditto the experiance with this... you can get underneath a real cash cow this way. I'm so glad I got out of the government consulting business.
Couple of bits of inside knowledge I've picked up that might be of use, (apologies if its a granny/sucking egges thing to any).
Frequently there will be an encumbant who are very likely to win the work again unless they have made a massive cock-up, (or even if they have if its IT related).. Its worth getting to know them too as not infrequently they sub out work once won.
Get to know the procurement people as well as the potential client lead. I've found in the past that we've won work at a given rate, only for procurement to get involved at the 11th hour and shave a good proportion off. That effectively cut my margin to the point of not being worth bothering with.
If you get involved in an e-procurement bid, watch out if there is going an online auction. They are very good at driving down costs and good for purchasing widgits; a traditional manufacturer should know exactly what the costs of production are so can work out margins by volumes by cost. I'd argue that any professional service should not use this sort of procurement process as it cannot differentiate on quality, (which often costs more).
ETA: I'm told the CSR which is about to happen should things easier for SMEs. Personally I believe that about as much as I believed the WMD thing and think its a way for Brown to charge you for the KY while he continues to rape the small businesses of this land, but hey ho, I'm merely a voter..
Edited by psychobert on Friday 9th March 11:27
psychobert said:
V8 EOL said:
muppetdave said:
But DON'T think all is lost if you go in cold on a tender. At my old company we did this regularly - the board disapproved me going for the bid and got the MD to price it at a ridiculous margin. However we really won the client and stakeholders over and subsequently won one of the highest margin contracts the business (£150.0M T/o) has ever had!
Agreed. Foot in the door and so on. Go in low (or at a loss) and aim to re-coup over the following year. Ditto the experiance with this... you can get underneath a real cash cow this way. I'm so glad I got out of the government consulting business.
Couple of bits of inside knowledge I've picked up that might be of use, (apologies if its a granny/sucking egges thing to any).
Frequently there will be an encumbant who are very likely to win the work again unless they have made a massive cock-up, (or even if they have if its IT related).. Its worth getting to know them too as not infrequently they sub out work once won.
Get to know the procurement people as well as the potential client lead. I've found in the past that we've won work at a given rate, only for procurement to get involved at the 11th hour and shave a good proportion off. That effectively cut my margin to the point of not being worth bothering with.
If you get involved in an e-procurement bid, watch out if there is going an online auction. They are very good at driving down costs and good for purchasing widgits; a traditional manufacturer should know exactly what the costs of production are so can work out margins by volumes by cost. I'd argue that any professional service should not use this sort of procurement process as it cannot differentiate on quality, (which often costs more).
ETA: I'm told the CSR which is about to happen should things easier for SMEs. Personally I believe that about as much as I believed the WMD thing and think its a way for Brown to charge you for the KY while he continues to rape the small businesses of this land, but hey ho, I'm merely a voter..
Edited by psychobert on Friday 9th March 11:27
I have started with the first one by ringing up the obvious bigger-boy competition and telling them about the tender (I know they would know anyway as they have a full time person who does nothing else). They know I am submitting, but I have been honest and said that we don't meet the qualification criteria but I want the company name on their desk at least once this year.
The procurement people are strange beasts. They have this firewall that prevents you talking direct to them and the spec says that if you contact them in any other way that that specified they will discontinue your tender. Even so, I have tried to at least send thank you emails when they have sent stuff through or answered formal queries.
At least the graft of getting accounts scanned, the various policies and certificates copied, CV's updated etc is done now, so future ones won't be such a pain.
What I hate is them asking questions such as 'what databases will you use?' because that tells me the incumbant has a databse or will know of one and I am just hoop jumping or doing loads of work to identify the right databases, when they could just tell me that they expect me to access a certain database. Obviously some test of subject knowledge and they don't mind wasting the time of new market competitors.
I tend to chase tenders that come up at holiday times because my main competitors are the universities who in my mind may tend all to clear off at Christmas, Easter and over the summer, but of coursee I suspect they know about the tender a long time before it comes out!
muppetdave said:
Leftie said:
I can see why they would want a larger contractor (stability), but in our sector 65% of people are small self employed providers who frankly don't get a chance at the larger contracts because of this 'preferred supplier' 'single tender with an existing provider' and application of a 'turnover ratio'. The big companies didn't have these kind of restrictions when they were trying to grow.
They will accept consortium bids but then require all the account and policy information on all partners, which mutiplies up the work (not to mention the fact that we are generally competitors and disclosing turnover, profit and costs to each other probably won't go down too well!).
I think perhaps the best we could do is get together, get a pack of documents done (ie one EO policy).
I'll happily assist in this if necessary. I think you should still have my e-mail address if you want me to help. You should be able to pull this together from other companies documentation if you can gain access to it.
From what I've seen of your business through your website etc, it all seems pretty good. I know this may sound crass and I'm sure you've already done this, but can you look at smaller contracts elsewhere in order to build further credibility/size? Or indeed could you look to work with one of the larger bidders as a 'sub-contractor' rather than form an alliance with other competitors?
Again, sorry if I sound like I'm preaching!
Nb. I agree with V8 EOL's comments regarding get in their faces almost. Yes be the first person they want to call when things go wrong with their incumbent. But DON'T think all is lost if you go in cold on a tender. At my old company we did this regularly - the board disapproved me going for the bid and got the MD to price it at a ridiculous margin. However we really won the client and stakeholders over and subsequently won one of the highest margin contracts the business (£150.0M T/o) has ever had!
Thanks Dave and Richard
I have submitted the PQQ on the larger job now, and have started on a full tender for a smaller piece of time critical work that has to be done inn May-July, which might catch one or two competitors out. I agree that getting in the door is important, which is what the saller tender may do: a relativey new Govt. department with decent budgets and not too many 'usual suspects' as Depts. like the Home Office tend to have. I do have to be careful because I use a lot of associate labour and minimising my profits on their time can feel a bit precarious financially if we have an unforeseen problem that we have to pay them to deal with.
I am also realising that through my associates it is the unique blend of skills that even the bigger boys can't match: psychologists, economists, crminologists, business academics, educationalists etc. If we could just avoid them asking the 'how big are you' questions and removing us that way we can, and have, beaten some of the industry's biggest in the last few years.
Think positive!
I have just looked at the assessment criteria on the latest tender we are doing.
Only 12.5% of the marks are allocated to the bid itself!
The rest goes to:
Compliance with putting all the right docs in the pack (10%)
Track record (20%)
Customer care (12.5%)
Risk assessment (10%)
PM (15%)
QA procedures (10%)
H&S, Eo and security policies ( 10%)
VFM (10%)
Most of the marks seem to go to an anally retentive pen pusher and someone who can use a photocopier and ring binder.
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