Investing - I'm hacked off
Discussion
For 10+ years I've had a reasonable (large to me) chunk of money invested in various places. I don't need it now, I want it to grow so I can live on it later. I've been with three different IFAs, had funds in god knows how many PEPs, ISAs, OEICs and what-not - and the result is always the same. They go up 10% - hurrah - then they go down 10% - boo. I get detailed letters telling me about volatility etc. I'm seriously wondering if it's worth the trouble. The only people who never lose, of course, are the people in the chain taking 1, 2, 3, 4% of everything along the line. Are they just getting rich at my expense?
Part of me is thinking of selling the whole bloody lot and shoving it in a building society, where growth may not be so spectacular but at least I won't see my gains vanish before my eyes.
What does the panel think?
Part of me is thinking of selling the whole bloody lot and shoving it in a building society, where growth may not be so spectacular but at least I won't see my gains vanish before my eyes.
What does the panel think?
People are always too complacent leaving their money in funds and assuming it always has the same management, this is not the case, a decent manger will move (as will any decent employee) to where he can make more money, and his services are more valued.
My opinion is, yes, funds etc are fine, but review them, check to see if it's performing, if it's not, change it.
My opinion is, yes, funds etc are fine, but review them, check to see if it's performing, if it's not, change it.
Agreed, the current IFA is actually a director at a firm of stockbrokers. And they have a chap that looks at screens and buys and sells things. But it doesn't seem to make any difference. I get a quarterly statement about 1/4" thick full of lists of shares and what's been bought and sold, but it still seems to go up and down with the markets. Lost 10% in the last 3 months.
Somewhere, surely, there must be a fund manager who says 'Shit, this is going down, let's stick it into cash' rather than 'Oh well, it'll come back eventually'. I hate the term 'long term investment' - from ym experience that's what gets trotted out and really meabs 'We can't be bothered to check it'. Any muppet can ride the market. Or am I expecting too much? Does anyone have any recommendations? Perhaps the PEP/ISA/OEIC wrappers are costing too much of any gain - perhaps I'd be better off dealing with individual shares?
Somewhere, surely, there must be a fund manager who says 'Shit, this is going down, let's stick it into cash' rather than 'Oh well, it'll come back eventually'. I hate the term 'long term investment' - from ym experience that's what gets trotted out and really meabs 'We can't be bothered to check it'. Any muppet can ride the market. Or am I expecting too much? Does anyone have any recommendations? Perhaps the PEP/ISA/OEIC wrappers are costing too much of any gain - perhaps I'd be better off dealing with individual shares?
Simpo Two said:
For 10+ years I've had a reasonable (large to me) chunk of money invested in various places. I don't need it now, I want it to grow so I can live on it later. I've been with three different IFAs, had funds in god knows how many PEPs, ISAs, OEICs and what-not - and the result is always the same. They go up 10% - hurrah - then they go down 10% - boo. I get detailed letters telling me about volatility etc. I'm seriously wondering if it's worth the trouble. The only people who never lose, of course, are the people in the chain taking 1, 2, 3, 4% of everything along the line. Are they just getting rich at my expense?
Part of me is thinking of selling the whole bloody lot and shoving it in a building society, where growth may not be so spectacular but at least I won't see my gains vanish before my eyes.
What does the panel think?
Unfortunately the average actively managed fund, after charges, underperforms the index. Also, past performance is to guide to future returns (I will dig out dcoument if you are interested). Part of me is thinking of selling the whole bloody lot and shoving it in a building society, where growth may not be so spectacular but at least I won't see my gains vanish before my eyes.
What does the panel think?
To answer you question, yes, they are getting rich at your expense. As Buffett says, most people are better off with a low cost index tracker
http://www.reuters.com/article/fundsFundsNews/idUS...
atom111 said:
Are there companies that would actively manage modest sums to make best of all returns? As that what seems to be required here.
Well, to be precise £175K currently in the situation above, and £46K on deposit.NoelWatson said:
Unfortunately the average actively managed fund, after charges, underperforms the index. Also, past performance is to guide to future returns (I will dig out dcoument if you are interested).
When I hear anyone say 'In the last 5 years our fund has grown by 98%' that probably means every man and his dog will pile in and it'll go back down. When the good news has come out, it's already too late IMHO. When they start advertising funds, you have to think it's because investors are drying up.NoelWatson said:
To answer you question, yes, they are getting rich at your expense. As Buffett says, most people are better off with a low cost index tracker
Which also would have lost 10% over the last three months (FTSE250). I don't have the experience or time to track things every day/week and take profits, then lie low until they fall and then reinvest to get the next rise. But somebody must do, surely? Am I asking the impossible? Simpo Two said:
atom111 said:
Are there companies that would actively manage modest sums to make best of all returns? As that what seems to be required here.
Well, to be precise £175K currently in the situation above, and £46K on deposit.NoelWatson said:
Unfortunately the average actively managed fund, after charges, underperforms the index. Also, past performance is to guide to future returns (I will dig out dcoument if you are interested).
When I hear anyone say 'In the last 5 years our fund has grown by 98%' that probably means every man and his dog will pile in and it'll go back down. When the good news has come out, it's already too late IMHO. When they start advertising funds, you have to think it's because investors are drying up.NoelWatson said:
To answer you question, yes, they are getting rich at your expense. As Buffett says, most people are better off with a low cost index tracker
Which also would have lost 10% over the last three months (FTSE250). I don't have the experience or time to track things every day/week and take profits, then lie low until they fall and then reinvest to get the next rise. But somebody must do, surely? Am I asking the impossible? Simpo Two said:
atom111 said:
Are there companies that would actively manage modest sums to make best of all returns? As that what seems to be required here.
Well, to be precise £175K currently in the situation above, and £46K on deposit.Simpo Two said:
For 10+ years I've had a reasonable (large to me) chunk of money invested in various places. I don't need it now, I want it to grow so I can live on it later. I've been with three different IFAs, had funds in god knows how many PEPs, ISAs, OEICs and what-not - and the result is always the same. They go up 10% - hurrah - then they go down 10% - boo. I get detailed letters telling me about volatility etc. I'm seriously wondering if it's worth the trouble. The only people who never lose, of course, are the people in the chain taking 1, 2, 3, 4% of everything along the line. Are they just getting rich at my expense?
Part of me is thinking of selling the whole bloody lot and shoving it in a building society, where growth may not be so spectacular but at least I won't see my gains vanish before my eyes.
What does the panel think?
For exactly what you have highlighted above i have never bothered with investments of this type. Property has served me so well over the years. I made some big returns on some and some decent returns on others. I have never seen less than 30% growth in any property i have bought in a 3 year period.Part of me is thinking of selling the whole bloody lot and shoving it in a building society, where growth may not be so spectacular but at least I won't see my gains vanish before my eyes.
What does the panel think?
The added bonus is that mostly its very little money down, rentals cover the payments and i have never seen any of my property decrease in value.
Over seas Agricultural Land is an exceptional investment at the moment. Especially the one below i have just sunk money into.
Greengold allows you to own approximately 12 acres of prime, managed, agricultural farm land for just US$40,000. The land comes with 10% guaranteed annual rent for 5 years and land prices are increasing by approximately 20-30% per annum.
With the growing demand for food and renewable energies in the World, we are offering a unique opportunity for investors to buy prime, managed, agricultural land in Argentina - The World's leading exporter and third largest producer of soybean oil. It is also the second largest exporter of corn and in 2006 signed trade agreements with China and India to supply crops for at least twenty years. Argentina currently export commodities to the EU, USA, Brazil, Chile, Japan, India and now China. The land will be used to grow food and carbon offset crops, which will generate a high annual income and capital growth for the next five years.
10% nett Guaranteed Annual Rent for 5 Years
Rent paid to client every 6 months
Rent is Guaranteed by a bond held by HSBC Bank
Estimated 20-30% Annual Capital Appreciation
Guaranteed Exit Strategy
Minimum Guaranteed Profit of 75% (If you hold land for 5 years)
Suitable for Self Invested Pension Plans (SIPP)
Featured in The Sunday Times as one of 'Five ways to earn 10% on your cash'
Client is free to sell whenever they desire
Only $40,000 required
stimmers said:
Greengold allows you to own approximately 12 acres of prime, managed, agricultural farm land for just US$40,000. The land comes with 10% guaranteed annual rent for 5 years and land prices are increasing by approximately 20-30% per annum.
With the growing demand for food and renewable energies in the World, we are offering a unique opportunity for investors to buy prime, managed, agricultural land in Argentina - The World's leading exporter and third largest producer of soybean oil. It is also the second largest exporter of corn and in 2006 signed trade agreements with China and India to supply crops for at least twenty years. Argentina currently export commodities to the EU, USA, Brazil, Chile, Japan, India and now China. The land will be used to grow food and carbon offset crops, which will generate a high annual income and capital growth for the next five years.
10% nett Guaranteed Annual Rent for 5 Years
Rent paid to client every 6 months
Rent is Guaranteed by a bond held by HSBC Bank
Estimated 20-30% Annual Capital Appreciation
Guaranteed Exit Strategy
Minimum Guaranteed Profit of 75% (If you hold land for 5 years)
Suitable for Self Invested Pension Plans (SIPP)
Featured in The Sunday Times as one of 'Five ways to earn 10% on your cash'
Client is free to sell whenever they desire
Only $40,000 required
That does sound rather like the 'Make a Million out of our Share Tips!!' type leaflets.. As a generally intelligent but (in this area) ignorant person, how is one supposed to tell whether that's a genuine bona fide deal or that it will all go pear-shaped and some Argentinian despot will run off with the money and the land?With the growing demand for food and renewable energies in the World, we are offering a unique opportunity for investors to buy prime, managed, agricultural land in Argentina - The World's leading exporter and third largest producer of soybean oil. It is also the second largest exporter of corn and in 2006 signed trade agreements with China and India to supply crops for at least twenty years. Argentina currently export commodities to the EU, USA, Brazil, Chile, Japan, India and now China. The land will be used to grow food and carbon offset crops, which will generate a high annual income and capital growth for the next five years.
10% nett Guaranteed Annual Rent for 5 Years
Rent paid to client every 6 months
Rent is Guaranteed by a bond held by HSBC Bank
Estimated 20-30% Annual Capital Appreciation
Guaranteed Exit Strategy
Minimum Guaranteed Profit of 75% (If you hold land for 5 years)
Suitable for Self Invested Pension Plans (SIPP)
Featured in The Sunday Times as one of 'Five ways to earn 10% on your cash'
Client is free to sell whenever they desire
Only $40,000 required
I'm seriously thinking of selling everything, get some interest (boring but reliable as markets fall) waiting for property to crash and then buying a second house. Which is exactly what I should have done in March 2000 of course!
Simpo Two said:
stimmers said:
Greengold allows you to own approximately 12 acres of prime, managed, agricultural farm land for just US$40,000. The land comes with 10% guaranteed annual rent for 5 years and land prices are increasing by approximately 20-30% per annum.
With the growing demand for food and renewable energies in the World, we are offering a unique opportunity for investors to buy prime, managed, agricultural land in Argentina - The World's leading exporter and third largest producer of soybean oil. It is also the second largest exporter of corn and in 2006 signed trade agreements with China and India to supply crops for at least twenty years. Argentina currently export commodities to the EU, USA, Brazil, Chile, Japan, India and now China. The land will be used to grow food and carbon offset crops, which will generate a high annual income and capital growth for the next five years.
10% nett Guaranteed Annual Rent for 5 Years
Rent paid to client every 6 months
Rent is Guaranteed by a bond held by HSBC Bank
Estimated 20-30% Annual Capital Appreciation
Guaranteed Exit Strategy
Minimum Guaranteed Profit of 75% (If you hold land for 5 years)
Suitable for Self Invested Pension Plans (SIPP)
Featured in The Sunday Times as one of 'Five ways to earn 10% on your cash'
Client is free to sell whenever they desire
Only $40,000 required
That does sound rather like the 'Make a Million out of our Share Tips!!' type leaflets.. With the growing demand for food and renewable energies in the World, we are offering a unique opportunity for investors to buy prime, managed, agricultural land in Argentina - The World's leading exporter and third largest producer of soybean oil. It is also the second largest exporter of corn and in 2006 signed trade agreements with China and India to supply crops for at least twenty years. Argentina currently export commodities to the EU, USA, Brazil, Chile, Japan, India and now China. The land will be used to grow food and carbon offset crops, which will generate a high annual income and capital growth for the next five years.
10% nett Guaranteed Annual Rent for 5 Years
Rent paid to client every 6 months
Rent is Guaranteed by a bond held by HSBC Bank
Estimated 20-30% Annual Capital Appreciation
Guaranteed Exit Strategy
Minimum Guaranteed Profit of 75% (If you hold land for 5 years)
Suitable for Self Invested Pension Plans (SIPP)
Featured in The Sunday Times as one of 'Five ways to earn 10% on your cash'
Client is free to sell whenever they desire
Only $40,000 required
Edited by NoelWatson on Sunday 20th January 08:54
I have bought property and land with the company before, which i have had great returns on. This time i was going to Peru for a month to travel, so i actually went to Buenos Aires after for a week. I was looked after by the CEO or their Argentina office. He showed me the city, my past investments and how they have grown, i witnessed first hand the economy and we went through in detail everything to do with this investment. I was left in absolutely no doubt that this was a seriously good investment opportunity. I also was visited in my office in Berkley Square by the guy in charge of selling this investment in the UK and also i have been to their headquarters near Cambridge. The company was featured in the Sunday Times Fast Track 100 in 2005 and 2006.
All the investment i have put money into have been heavily invested in by the company its self, so if it goes tits up, they lose big time.
My due diligence when investing my money is always extremely thorough.
All the investment i have put money into have been heavily invested in by the company its self, so if it goes tits up, they lose big time.
My due diligence when investing my money is always extremely thorough.
Simpo Two said:
waiting for property to crash and then buying a second house
IMO only of course, but please don't expect the property market to 'crash'. I can see a time when property goes down, maybe a max of 10%. But then start to creep up again.If property goes down any significant % then people will start buying up 'cheap' property and what does that do to the market? Rental money in London at the mo is very strong and there is demand for good rental properties. So there is still plenty of money out their in the market, its just needs to balance out a little from rentals to sales, once the media have had enough selling papers off doom and gloom storys and scaring everyone
Again, just my opinion
I'm not an expert, but here's my current thinking. I'm welcome to feedback...
I don't it would have been difficult to play BTL, if I had the money a few years back I probably would have done. Instead, I maxed out my mortgage and did BTLive-in instead.
Index trackers look good, but in a falling market that will still mean a loss. But I understand they typically equal/beat 90% of the companies in that index, so Buffett's advice is good enough for me. But I won't be tracking FTSE or any European or US indices, as I feel they could fall.
It might be a good time to put money in the building societies, and see what happens next in the US economy (and how that affects Europe & UK). Waiting for a crash in property, then doing BTL sounds like a great plan. I wouldn't be too surprised to see small flats falling 20-30%, I understand many people don't agree with that (see other threads) but I think that would bring them back to affordable levels. Sadly, only the affluent will benefit.
But fundamentally, I doubt if the fund managers and advisors we've been paying have been doing anything you or I couldn't do using trackers, Maxi ISA's, a little common sense etc. So even if we let them manage our money, we still need to pay attention, and manage them (=be ready/willing to switch where our money is).
If anyone more knowledgeable than me wants to comment, can you also tell me how I choose a Maxi-ISA, is there a place where I can compare all of them to see which have best charges, conditions etc?
I don't it would have been difficult to play BTL, if I had the money a few years back I probably would have done. Instead, I maxed out my mortgage and did BTLive-in instead.
Index trackers look good, but in a falling market that will still mean a loss. But I understand they typically equal/beat 90% of the companies in that index, so Buffett's advice is good enough for me. But I won't be tracking FTSE or any European or US indices, as I feel they could fall.
It might be a good time to put money in the building societies, and see what happens next in the US economy (and how that affects Europe & UK). Waiting for a crash in property, then doing BTL sounds like a great plan. I wouldn't be too surprised to see small flats falling 20-30%, I understand many people don't agree with that (see other threads) but I think that would bring them back to affordable levels. Sadly, only the affluent will benefit.
But fundamentally, I doubt if the fund managers and advisors we've been paying have been doing anything you or I couldn't do using trackers, Maxi ISA's, a little common sense etc. So even if we let them manage our money, we still need to pay attention, and manage them (=be ready/willing to switch where our money is).
If anyone more knowledgeable than me wants to comment, can you also tell me how I choose a Maxi-ISA, is there a place where I can compare all of them to see which have best charges, conditions etc?
stimmers said:
Simpo Two said:
waiting for property to crash and then buying a second house
IMO only of course, but please don't expect the property market to 'crash'. I can see a time when property goes down, maybe a max of 10%. But then start to creep up again.If property goes down any significant % then people will start buying up 'cheap' property and what does that do to the market? Rental money in London at the mo is very strong and there is demand for good rental properties. So there is still plenty of money out their in the market, its just needs to balance out a little from rentals to sales, once the media have had enough selling papers off doom and gloom storys and scaring everyone
Again, just my opinion
NoelWatson said:
stimmers said:
Simpo Two said:
waiting for property to crash and then buying a second house
IMO only of course, but please don't expect the property market to 'crash'. I can see a time when property goes down, maybe a max of 10%. But then start to creep up again.If property goes down any significant % then people will start buying up 'cheap' property and what does that do to the market? Rental money in London at the mo is very strong and there is demand for good rental properties. So there is still plenty of money out their in the market, its just needs to balance out a little from rentals to sales, once the media have had enough selling papers off doom and gloom storys and scaring everyone
Again, just my opinion
For example, in some areas, my own as an example, houses are quite limited, however there have been hundred or even thousands of one and two bed flats chucked up recently. Similarly, due to the financially uncertain times there are of course less people wanting to extend their borrowing to move up the ladder from a large detached to a larger detached.
Thus, in my area at least I would expect the overall average sale price to drop anyway just through this.
I don't think those in larger houses will lose that much per se - their asset may just become less liquid than before, as perhaps the people who *have* to sell up to move down the ladder, or to rent mean that the larger houses that are sold are either going to be those sold by an owner 'in distress' and looking for a quick and therefore lower sale, or a repossession.
As stimmers has said, whilst people are selling, that does mean that they still have to live somewhere, and therefore rent.
I think all that will happen is there will be a larger financial gap between those who have invested well - perhaps in property to let already, and those who have 'invested' their credit card balances to living above their means - who will end up funding the assets of the first party!
Edited by JustinP1 on Sunday 20th January 00:37
Ordinary Bloke said:
I'm not an expert, but here's my current thinking. I'm welcome to feedback...
Index trackers look good, but in a falling market that will still mean a loss. But I understand they typically equal/beat 90% of the companies in that index, so Buffett's advice is good enough for me. But I won't be tracking FTSE or any European or US indices, as I feel they could fall.
I'm no expert either, but as it's money that I don't need (and we're talking very modest sums here, nowhere near the OPs level of investment), and I'm in for the long term, I don't worry too much about the market falling (though ideally you'd put all your money in at the bottom of the market). Having had an index tracker ISA for about 4 years it's performance has been slightly better than the cash ISA which I whore about to get near the market leading interest rates...Index trackers look good, but in a falling market that will still mean a loss. But I understand they typically equal/beat 90% of the companies in that index, so Buffett's advice is good enough for me. But I won't be tracking FTSE or any European or US indices, as I feel they could fall.
CH
JustinP1 said:
NoelWatson said:
stimmers said:
Simpo Two said:
waiting for property to crash and then buying a second house
IMO only of course, but please don't expect the property market to 'crash'. I can see a time when property goes down, maybe a max of 10%. But then start to creep up again.If property goes down any significant % then people will start buying up 'cheap' property and what does that do to the market? Rental money in London at the mo is very strong and there is demand for good rental properties. So there is still plenty of money out their in the market, its just needs to balance out a little from rentals to sales, once the media have had enough selling papers off doom and gloom storys and scaring everyone
Again, just my opinion
For example, in some areas, my own as an example, houses are quite limited, however there have been hundred or even thousands of one and two bed flats chucked up recently. Similarly, due to the financially uncertain times there are of course less people wanting to extend their borrowing to move up the ladder from a large detached to a larger detached.
Thus, in my area at least I would expect the overall average sale price to drop anyway just through this.
I don't think those in larger houses will lose that much per se - their asset may just become less liquid than before, as perhaps the people who *have* to sell up to move down the ladder, or to rent mean that the larger houses that are sold are either going to be those sold by an owner 'in distress' and looking for a quick and therefore lower sale, or a repossession.
As stimmers has said, whilst people are selling, that does mean that they still have to live somewhere, and therefore rent.
I think all that will happen is there will be a larger financial gap between those who have invested well - perhaps in property to let already, and those who have 'invested' their credit card balances to living above their means - who will end up funding the assets of the first party!
Edited by JustinP1 on Sunday 20th January 00:37
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