Account form altered

[paoloh]

Used to be a Director of a Ltd co. that went into insolvency.

The Ltd company traded as under various names, IE: Joe Bloggs Shoes Ltd Trading as Joe bloggs Fitness. All sharing VAT number and all tax affairs.

One company is personally taking me to court for their outstanding invoice.

On the account opening form, we quoted, Ltd Co. Number, VAT number, that I was a Director, etc etc of the Ltd company but we forgot to fill out company name.

The company suing me, filled in the comapny name themselves. Not quoting me as "trading as" but using one of the trading names.

Question are this:

Is account opening even legal if they have altered or added to it without our company signing all alterations or additions?

Any other things I should mention in Court?

[UpTheIron]

What "Account Form" is this / what is it's purpose?

What are their grounds for taking YOU to court over a limited company debt?

Is their challenge based upon "trading whilst insolvent". If you were, and they can prove you did it knowingly, you will lose.

Who is the "we" in your post - co-directors? Are they also named in the action?

Edited by UpTheIron on Thursday 3rd April 08:01

[paoloh]

UpTheIron said:

What "Account Form" is this / what is it's purpose?

What are their grounds for taking YOU to court over a limited company debt?

Is their challenge based upon "trading whilst insolvent". If you were, and they can prove you did it knowingly, you will lose.

Who is the "we" in your post - co-directors? Are they also named in the action?

Edited by UpTheIron on Thursday 3rd April 08:01

When our company opened an account with them, they are trying to say, I opened it as a sole trader but as I stated, we filled in all details of Ltd company apart from Company name. My name was on account form as a Director. They are only suing me. They then filled in company name. No mention of me trading as.

Edited by paoloh on Thursday 3rd April 09:19

[Eric Mc]

Who did they trade with?

Who were the bills issued to?

What entity owes the money to this supplier?

What did it show on the statements they issued - your name or the company name?

Who did they THINK they were trading with?

[paoloh]

Eric Mc said:

Who did they trade with?

Who were the bills issued to?

What entity owes the money to this supplier?

What did it show on the statements they issued - your name or the company name?

Who did they THINK they were trading with?

They traded with the Ltd company's trading as style.
The trading as style.
The Ltd company's trading as style
My name is not on any invoice.
As per account opening form, I would assume, a Ltd company.

Would an account opening form be a legal document if altered or added to?
Just spoken to a sole trader who uses same supplier and his invoices have his name on.

Any help appreciated.

[Eric Mc]

I don't understand your use of the word "style".

[paoloh]

Eric Mc said:

I don't understand your use of the word "style".

The main Ltd company was trading as various other comapnies. Thta's what I meant as "style". Hope that clears that up?

[Eric Mc]

So you had a company which was called (say) XYZ Ltd but that it issued invoices which read XYZ Ltd Trading as "Style"?

Or did the invoices not show the name of the limited company at all and just the "Trading As" name?

[plasticpig]

paoloh said:

Eric Mc said:

Who did they trade with?

Who were the bills issued to?

What entity owes the money to this supplier?

What did it show on the statements they issued - your name or the company name?

Who did they THINK they were trading with?

They traded with the Ltd company's trading as style.
The trading as style.
The Ltd company's trading as style
My name is not on any invoice.
As per account opening form, I would assume, a Ltd company.

Would an account opening form be a legal document if altered or added to?
Just spoken to a sole trader who uses same supplier and his invoices have his name on.

Any help appreciated.

You need to find out what the the invoices actually say. In particular what the "Invoice to:" part says. If it has Ltd after the company name then they havent a leg to stand on. If (as I suspect) it dosent then it is far more murky. My company has in the past refused to pay invoices when they havent had the LTD after the company name for the very reason you are being sued. A purchase invoice should alwasys have the Ltd company name on it and not a trading name.

[paoloh]

Eric Mc said:

So you had a company which was called (say) XYZ Ltd but that it issued invoices which read XYZ Ltd Trading as "Style"?

Or did the invoices not show the name of the limited company at all and just the "Trading As" name?

1st one.

The invoices our supplier sent us only had the "trading as" name on them but as I stated earlier, the added the name to account opening form and not us! We put all Ltd company details on form but not name.

[Eric Mc]

plasticpig said:

paoloh said:

Eric Mc said:

Who did they trade with?

Who were the bills issued to?

What entity owes the money to this supplier?

What did it show on the statements they issued - your name or the company name?

Who did they THINK they were trading with?

They traded with the Ltd company's trading as style.
The trading as style.
The Ltd company's trading as style
My name is not on any invoice.
As per account opening form, I would assume, a Ltd company.

Would an account opening form be a legal document if altered or added to?
Just spoken to a sole trader who uses same supplier and his invoices have his name on.

Any help appreciated.

You need to find out what the the invoices actually say. In particular what the "Invoice to:" part says. If it has Ltd after the company name then they havent a leg to stand on. If (as I suspect) it dosent then it is far more murky. My company has in the past refused to pay invoices when they havent had the LTD after the company name for the very reason you are being sued. A purchase invoice should alwasys have the Ltd company name on it and not a trading name.

Absolutely.

If you have issued invoices or received supplier invoices which did not show the name of the trading entity correctly (i.e. the limited company name) and you have an agreement with a supplier which never mentioned the limited company name either - you have made life very difficult for yourself.

[paoloh]

Eric Mc said:

plasticpig said:

paoloh said:

Eric Mc said:

Who did they trade with?

Who were the bills issued to?

What entity owes the money to this supplier?

What did it show on the statements they issued - your name or the company name?

Who did they THINK they were trading with?

They traded with the Ltd company's trading as style.
The trading as style.
The Ltd company's trading as style
My name is not on any invoice.
As per account opening form, I would assume, a Ltd company.

Would an account opening form be a legal document if altered or added to?
Just spoken to a sole trader who uses same supplier and his invoices have his name on.

Any help appreciated.

You need to find out what the the invoices actually say. In particular what the "Invoice to:" part says. If it has Ltd after the company name then they havent a leg to stand on. If (as I suspect) it dosent then it is far more murky. My company has in the past refused to pay invoices when they havent had the LTD after the company name for the very reason you are being sued. A purchase invoice should alwasys have the Ltd company name on it and not a trading name.

Absolutely.

If you have issued invoices or received supplier invoices which did not show the name of the trading entity correctly (i.e. the limited company name) and you have an agreement with a supplier which never mentioned the limited company name either - you have made life very difficult for yourself.

But would the opposite not be true if they don't show my name?

[Eric Mc]

paoloh said:

Eric Mc said:

So you had a company which was called (say) XYZ Ltd but that it issued invoices which read XYZ Ltd Trading as "Style"?

Or did the invoices not show the name of the limited company at all and just the "Trading As" name?

1st one.

The invoices our supplier sent us only had the "trading as" name on them but as I stated earlier, the added the name to account opening form and not us! We put all Ltd company details on form but not name.

Unfortunately, your use of English is causing me much confusion.

You issued sales invoices which nowhere showed the name of your limited company - correct?

Your limited company had an account with a supplier but the original agreement between the company and the supplier failed to actually mention the name of your company on the agreement, so the supplier initially did not realise that they were dealing with a limited company?

[paoloh]

Eric Mc said:

paoloh said:

Eric Mc said:

So you had a company which was called (say) XYZ Ltd but that it issued invoices which read XYZ Ltd Trading as "Style"?

Or did the invoices not show the name of the limited company at all and just the "Trading As" name?

1st one.

The invoices our supplier sent us only had the "trading as" name on them but as I stated earlier, the added the name to account opening form and not us! We put all Ltd company details on form but not name.

Unfortunately, your use of English is causing me much confusion.

You issued sales invoices which nowhere showed the name of your limited company - correct?

Your limited company had an account with a supplier but the original agreement between the company and the supplier failed to actually mention the name of your company on the agreement, so the supplier initially did not realise that they were dealing with a limited company?

Right, here goes:

On account opening, we filled out all details of Ltd company. VAT Number, Company Number, Address, Me as a Director.

NO company name was put on form by us, the supplier added it without asking us to sign for addition or returning the form to us, for us to fill out.

Their invoices arrived in the Ltd company's "trading As" style.

NOT anywhere on form did it state that I was a Sole Trader.

They are now suing me personally for the debt.

[paoloh]

Just checked account opening form and I have ticked that it IS a Ltd Company and stated that I am a Director.

[JustinP1]

Right,

The account opening form - we need to work out if it is a contract or just something they used to get your info on their system.

Did the form have their T&Cs etc on it, and a place for you to sign etc? Or was it just a sheet with some blanks for you to inform them of your details?

When did you discover that the form was filled in on your behalf?

[plasticpig]

paoloh said:

Eric Mc said:

paoloh said:

Eric Mc said:

So you had a company which was called (say) XYZ Ltd but that it issued invoices which read XYZ Ltd Trading as "Style"?

Or did the invoices not show the name of the limited company at all and just the "Trading As" name?

1st one.

The invoices our supplier sent us only had the "trading as" name on them but as I stated earlier, the added the name to account opening form and not us! We put all Ltd company details on form but not name.

Unfortunately, your use of English is causing me much confusion.

You issued sales invoices which nowhere showed the name of your limited company - correct?

Your limited company had an account with a supplier but the original agreement between the company and the supplier failed to actually mention the name of your company on the agreement, so the supplier initially did not realise that they were dealing with a limited company?

Right, here goes:

On account opening, we filled out all details of Ltd company. VAT Number, Company Number, Address, Me as a Director.

NO company name was put on form by us, the supplier added it without asking us to sign for addition or returning the form to us, for us to fill out.

Their invoices arrived in the Ltd company's "trading As" style.

NOT anywhere on form did it state that I was a Sole Trader.

They are now suing me personally for the debt.

Just to clarify this. As an example ACME Trading Ltd has a trading name of Freestyle UK. In your case the suppliers invoice "Invoice To:" bit would be:

Freestlye UK
ACME House
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxx
AC1 3ME

[Eric Mc]

Thanks for the clarification. Even though you may have omitted to actually write the proper name of the limited company on the "Account Opening Form", there does seem to have been sufficient information put on that application form to indicate that they were going to be dealing with a limited company and not an individual.

If they had checked out the VAT number with HMRC they would have known they were dealing with a company.

If they had checked the company number they could also have verified that they were dealing with a company.

I would suggest that you are probably OK on that score. The fact that THEY decided to enter your company name on the form on their own iniative indicates to me that they knew full well they were dealing with aa limited company and not you personally. This actually weakens THEIR case, not yours.

If they feel that they have a case for pursuing you personally, they can still do that but only if they can produce evidence that they think you carried on trading "wrongfully" or "fraudulently" - which are notoriously difficult things to prove.

There is also the question as to whether the application form you completed to open the account on its own constituted a contractual obligation to "treat" with these people.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 3rd April 10:39

[plasticpig]

Eric Mc said:

Thanks for the clarification. Even though you may have omitted to actually write the proper name of the limited company on the "Account Opening Form", there does seem to have been sufficient information put on that application form to indicate that they were going to be dealing with a limited company and not an individual.

If they had checked out the VAT number with HMRC they would have known they were dealing with a company.

If they had checked the company number they could also have verified that they were dealing with a company.

I would suggest that you are probably OK on that score. The fact that THEY decided to enter your company name on the form on their own iniative indicates to me that they knew full well they were dealing with aa limited company and not you personally. This actually weakens THEIR case, not yours.

If they feel that they have a case for pursuing you personally, they can still do that but only if they can produce evidence that they think you carried on trading "wrongfully" or "fraudulently" - which are notoriously difficult things to prove.

There is also the question as to whether the application form you completed to open the account on its own constituted a contractual obligation to "treat" with these people.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 3rd April 10:39

Just had an idea about this. Assuming the supplier recieved payment from the company and then go to court on the basis that paoloh was a sole trader and they win. Then the supplier has no contract with the company. In which case the administrator for the company should issue proceeding against the supplier to recover all monies paid as they were obvioulsy paid in error as Poaloh should have paid the invoices and not the Ltd company. Not sure this would fly or not.

Edited by plasticpig on Thursday 3rd April 10:59

[paoloh]

Eric Mc said:

Thanks for the clarification. Even though you may have omitted to actually write the proper name of the limited company on the "Account Opening Form", there does seem to have been sufficient information put on that application form to indicate that they were going to be dealing with a limited company and not an individual.

If they had checked out the VAT number with HMRC they would have known they were dealing with a company.

If they had checked the company number they could also have verified that they were dealing with a company.

I would suggest that you are probably OK on that score. The fact that THEY decided to enter your company name on the form on their own iniative indicates to me that they knew full well they were dealing with aa limited company and not you personally. This actually weakens THEIR case, not yours.

If they feel that they have a case for pursuing you personally, they can still do that but only if they can produce evidence that they think you carried on trading "wrongfully" or "fraudulently" - which are notoriously difficult things to prove.

There is also the question as to whether the application form you completed to open the account on its own constituted a contractual obligation to "treat" with these people.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 3rd April 10:39

I'm in court on Monday to defend this case. Fingers crossed and thanks for your help and advice guys.