Architects - Consumer Rights
Discussion
We have had some drawings done for an extension, with the architects getting us far as gaining building regs. We didn't want them to manage the project.
We are just about to start building and I have noticed that the approved plans and cross sections (for building regs) are not to scale. I had asked the architect to put explicit measurements and heights on, but he has only put some on.
This leaves me wandering how the builder is supposed to get things right.
So my question is - is this normal, or has the architect bodged?
We have already written a letter of complaint to the head of the practice over his feet dragging in producing the drawings, but go no response.
Before I contact them again, I need to know where I stand with my customer rights in the case I don't get satisfaction. Are they still subject to the normal process of as described, as expected, merchantable quality etc?
Is there a governing body that has an authority to issue a slap to practices that don't perform to standards?
Thanks for any information
Mark.
We are just about to start building and I have noticed that the approved plans and cross sections (for building regs) are not to scale. I had asked the architect to put explicit measurements and heights on, but he has only put some on.
This leaves me wandering how the builder is supposed to get things right.
So my question is - is this normal, or has the architect bodged?
We have already written a letter of complaint to the head of the practice over his feet dragging in producing the drawings, but go no response.
Before I contact them again, I need to know where I stand with my customer rights in the case I don't get satisfaction. Are they still subject to the normal process of as described, as expected, merchantable quality etc?
Is there a governing body that has an authority to issue a slap to practices that don't perform to standards?
Thanks for any information
Mark.
Sorry to hear of your problems - my experience is that Architects tend to be a very professional bunch and thats not just because of the legislation that governs their work -
Q: What were your initial instructions to the firm and what was in the Terms Of Reference?
Try this link for some guidance before going in with both guns blazing
http://www.architecture.com/LibraryDrawingsAndPhot...
Q: What were your initial instructions to the firm and what was in the Terms Of Reference?
Try this link for some guidance before going in with both guns blazing
http://www.architecture.com/LibraryDrawingsAndPhot...
Carsie said:
Sorry to hear of your problems - my experience is that Architects tend to be a very professional bunch and thats not just because of the legislation that governs their work -
Q: What were your initial instructions to the firm and what was in the Terms Of Reference?
Try this link for some guidance before going in with both guns blazing
http://www.architecture.com/LibraryDrawingsAndPhot...
I am not planning on going in guns blazing, I just need to understand where I stand and what rights I have, all the information to hand so to speak before I have another conversation with them.Q: What were your initial instructions to the firm and what was in the Terms Of Reference?
Try this link for some guidance before going in with both guns blazing
http://www.architecture.com/LibraryDrawingsAndPhot...
Basically we angaged them based on recomendations, and having met with several architects, to design an extension to our house and to get us through planning, building regs and to produce drawings to build from.
I am totally happy with the design they have produced, just disappointed with the detail and the amount of time taken to produce the drawings. I am past worrying about the time issue, now I just need to make sure that I have correct and workable drawings.
We are meeting with the builders next week and I just need to know all the information before I talk to all the parties.
Mark.
I'm struggling to understand how they got approved building regs when the plans aren't to scale.. Are you saying that none of the plans are to scale or only part(s) of them? Most of our stuff is to scale and well indicated, one item we don't do to scale are the drains (if changed). Apart from that, everything is scaled explicitly. But we're not architects..
See http://www.rossassociates1995.co.uk/ for a sample of our work, or PM me if the link is removed. Our stuff is quite "dull" i.e. no flashy colours or nice fill patterns, but we do generate drawings that a builder can build from (otherwise what's the point? apart from conforming to Building Control of course!) and we tend to have half a mind on potential Building Control issues when we are formulating the Planning stage of things..
They should be able to (cheaply) generate drawings that are to scale, especially if they have them on CAD systems.. and add in dimensions, where needed and scale them accordingly, so that the detail is easy enough to see. Maybe try asking them for that - but they may want to try and charge you for the time and materials.. although it should only take a morning, or less..
There is a big difference between Planning and Building Control...
See http://www.rossassociates1995.co.uk/ for a sample of our work, or PM me if the link is removed. Our stuff is quite "dull" i.e. no flashy colours or nice fill patterns, but we do generate drawings that a builder can build from (otherwise what's the point? apart from conforming to Building Control of course!) and we tend to have half a mind on potential Building Control issues when we are formulating the Planning stage of things..
They should be able to (cheaply) generate drawings that are to scale, especially if they have them on CAD systems.. and add in dimensions, where needed and scale them accordingly, so that the detail is easy enough to see. Maybe try asking them for that - but they may want to try and charge you for the time and materials.. although it should only take a morning, or less..
There is a big difference between Planning and Building Control...
Edited by ginettag27 on Tuesday 27th May 12:13
My 2 penneth worth...
When you say not to scale, do you mean that every line or lenght of line does not have a dimension on?
A builder will normally be able to work most thins out f they have one or two key dimensions.
an example would be if I drew a line along the ground with a dimension on, I would not necceserily need the wall height dim, as with a scale rule I can work the other dim out.
I hope I have understood you correctly. Hopefully the above is the situation.
p.s any architect worth there salt should be in the RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects)
When you say not to scale, do you mean that every line or lenght of line does not have a dimension on?
A builder will normally be able to work most thins out f they have one or two key dimensions.
an example would be if I drew a line along the ground with a dimension on, I would not necceserily need the wall height dim, as with a scale rule I can work the other dim out.
I hope I have understood you correctly. Hopefully the above is the situation.
p.s any architect worth there salt should be in the RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects)
The set of drawings that were submitted for planning approval were to scale, in that a scale 1:100 was indicated on the A1 drawings. Using a ruler, or scale ruler you could measure the lines on the drawings, and these measurements matched exaclty the explicit measurments labelled on the drawings.
When we took the building reg approved drawings to the window manufacturer, they used a scale rule to measure a gap, that was explicityly labelled, and the two did not match.
I accept that we should be able to calculate a new scale based on the drawings and explicit measurements, but I don't see that I should have too, especially when I have spend a couple of £k on getting a "professional" to draw them.
I should qualify that not every line has a dimension on. All rooms have length, width dimensions. Individual sections don't. The dimension that worries me is that there is no height information, and it looks like none of the cross sections are to scale.
I will have another look at the drawings when I get home at the weekend and see what the title blocks are on them. I suspect that in reality there are only versions, rather than any other kind of labels.
Mark.
When we took the building reg approved drawings to the window manufacturer, they used a scale rule to measure a gap, that was explicityly labelled, and the two did not match.
I accept that we should be able to calculate a new scale based on the drawings and explicit measurements, but I don't see that I should have too, especially when I have spend a couple of £k on getting a "professional" to draw them.
I should qualify that not every line has a dimension on. All rooms have length, width dimensions. Individual sections don't. The dimension that worries me is that there is no height information, and it looks like none of the cross sections are to scale.
I will have another look at the drawings when I get home at the weekend and see what the title blocks are on them. I suspect that in reality there are only versions, rather than any other kind of labels.
Mark.
Edited by supersport on Tuesday 27th May 14:29
Ah ha.. Now I understand a little better...
Personally all of the drawing elements should indicate if they are to scale or not.
The cross sections, should also be to scale, they may be 1:50 or another scale to suit..
Which dimension are you concerned about for the windows?
If a client of ours spent a few k on drawings I'd be giving them exactly what they asked for and in the event
of an issue such as this, what they wanted!
Personally all of the drawing elements should indicate if they are to scale or not.
The cross sections, should also be to scale, they may be 1:50 or another scale to suit..
Which dimension are you concerned about for the windows?
If a client of ours spent a few k on drawings I'd be giving them exactly what they asked for and in the event
of an issue such as this, what they wanted!
sleep envy said:
you will note that the small print on the title block will state 'DO NOT SCALE FROM THESE DRAWINGS'
dependent on what you have agreed with the A the drawing status will define what outcome you get
oo, that is scary as that phrase rings a bell, although I think it was only on the preliminary drawings.dependent on what you have agreed with the A the drawing status will define what outcome you get
I think there is a basic problem here, the A never gave us a written or signed letter stating what we would get for our money or what our contract was, my understanding is that if he is a member of RIBA this is mandatory!
Our instructions were to get us through planning and building regs, and I assume that this would generate a set of drawings from which we could build the house. After all what is the point in paying for these plans unless you can build from them.
If it turns out that we don't have what we expected, but we don't have it in writing, then we can't prove/demonstrate what we should have got. Having said that, if the A is governed by a professional body, then he should have laid out the terms of business from the start. If he should have done this, then he is in trouble.
in that case you could, if you play your cards right, have him over a barrel...
I've got a situation where a consultant has made reference to an appointment document, albeit amended to their terms, yet they've not signed them even after working on the scheme for 6 months - I've argued that it's now implied as they haven't signed the amended document and they have to deliver the full service
I've got a situation where a consultant has made reference to an appointment document, albeit amended to their terms, yet they've not signed them even after working on the scheme for 6 months - I've argued that it's now implied as they haven't signed the amended document and they have to deliver the full service
Adam T said:
EVERY architects drawing I have evr used has had "do not scale from this drawing"
Have you had any estimates etc or buildes look at these drawings?
THe early drawings had "do not scale..." on them, even though they were to scale. Having said that none of them actually had the correct scale.Have you had any estimates etc or buildes look at these drawings?
THe builder has quoted based on the drawings, although he had the pre-approved drawings, nothing has changed and has since had copies of the approved drawings.
I am meeting up with the builder next week to finalise details before he starts in August. I am just trying to get a clear understanding of where I stand and what if any risks go with the drawings we have.
I think it would be worth getting the builder to confirm he is happy with all the drawings and relevant specifications that he has based hgis price on, and that you are confident that your architects drawings detail by way of drwan and noted information that you are to get built what you wanted in the first place.
There is no point agreeing a price for work and then having to pay more for it becuase your architect has not defined things properly. It wuld most likely not be the builders fault. Te builder can only base his price on the information drawna and specified, or what a QS has scheduled or agreed etc.
Been known in the past to price things and then clients to think there getting gold plated taps etc and all that was agreed on was a budget range from the bath store etc etc.
Make sure all parties know what they are getting etc and know what you r doing.
There is no point agreeing a price for work and then having to pay more for it becuase your architect has not defined things properly. It wuld most likely not be the builders fault. Te builder can only base his price on the information drawna and specified, or what a QS has scheduled or agreed etc.
Been known in the past to price things and then clients to think there getting gold plated taps etc and all that was agreed on was a budget range from the bath store etc etc.
Make sure all parties know what they are getting etc and know what you r doing.
Two questions:
1) Are the drawings in CAD?
2) Are the proportions correct (ie. is a line that is mean to be 5 metres long twice the length on paper as a line that is supposed to be 2.5 metres long)?
It's actually very much more difficult to create drawings that are not proportionally correct than ones which are (it would have to be a concious effort on the part of the Architect), but on CAD it's easy to accidentally print - or set up the 'paper space' on the drawing - incorrectly so that the resulting print is to a 'b
d scale'.
It's equally easy to correct the problem by scaling them back to a correct scale on a photocopier or plans printer, though, even if the Architect isn't willing to produce a corrected set of prints for you.
1) Are the drawings in CAD?
2) Are the proportions correct (ie. is a line that is mean to be 5 metres long twice the length on paper as a line that is supposed to be 2.5 metres long)?
It's actually very much more difficult to create drawings that are not proportionally correct than ones which are (it would have to be a concious effort on the part of the Architect), but on CAD it's easy to accidentally print - or set up the 'paper space' on the drawing - incorrectly so that the resulting print is to a 'b
d scale'. It's equally easy to correct the problem by scaling them back to a correct scale on a photocopier or plans printer, though, even if the Architect isn't willing to produce a corrected set of prints for you.
supersport said:
Hobo said:
Just out of interest who is the architect ? I only ask as I recently used an architect from north yorkshire for a project & had nothing but hassle. I hope for your sake its not the same one.
Lawrence Hannah!
We now use a very good outfit, thank god.
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