Building/Land query urgent
Discussion
Recently finished building my house in London and the neighbor has given me a precarious situation. My house was essentially built on what was previously a garden. And as such the boundary on one side is shared with the garden of another home. I built up to the boundary. The house has a flat roof and a box gutter system. The neighbor is saying that because I built on the boundary my rainwater pipes which are attached to the wall which shares the boundary are protruding onto his land , (by say 3-4") albeit at about 25 feet above ground level. He is saying that I have to remove it all but obviously this will cause me to have to rework al the falls etc on my roof and will prob cost about 4-5k which I could do without spending.
Any thoughts, have checked with Sol and Arc and waiting for responses but thought I would ask here to see if anyone had any ideas.
Any thougts??
Many thanks
Any thoughts, have checked with Sol and Arc and waiting for responses but thought I would ask here to see if anyone had any ideas.
Any thougts??
Many thanks
Hi Phil have offered to by the land but hes asking for 20k I offered 15k and hes not having it, it would make a nice addition to the house but to be honest I think my 15k offer is fair at the moment.
There was no topographical or anything re the boundary but the fences and walls etc pretty much dictated where my land was.
If he wont take 15k for the land then i was thinking about running a gutter internally, so I wouldnt have to alter the falls on the roof. sound insulation would be no problem but never seen it done like that before??
Cheers
There was no topographical or anything re the boundary but the fences and walls etc pretty much dictated where my land was.
If he wont take 15k for the land then i was thinking about running a gutter internally, so I wouldnt have to alter the falls on the roof. sound insulation would be no problem but never seen it done like that before??
Cheers
Edited by JOETHETOE on Thursday 31st July 10:00
JOETHETOE said:
Hi Phil have offered to by the land but hes asking for 20k I offered 15k and hes not having it, it would make a nice addition to the house but to be honest I think my 15k offer is fair at the moment.
I was just thinking of buying a foot of land just to get around the issue. Probably expensive in land terms but might be cheaper than doing the building work?JOETHETOE said:
Recently finished building my house in London and the neighbor has given me a precarious situation. My house was essentially built on what was previously a garden. And as such the boundary on one side is shared with the garden of another home. I built up to the boundary. The house has a flat roof and a box gutter system. The neighbor is saying that because I built on the boundary my rainwater pipes which are attached to the wall which shares the boundary are protruding onto his land , (by say 3-4") albeit at about 25 feet above ground level. He is saying that I have to remove it all but obviously this will cause me to have to rework al the falls etc on my roof and will prob cost about 4-5k which I could do without spending.
Any thoughts, have checked with Sol and Arc and waiting for responses but thought I would ask here to see if anyone had any ideas.
Any thougts??
Many thanks
My first thought is that this chappie falls into one of two catagories: mentally unstable or after a quick buck.Any thoughts, have checked with Sol and Arc and waiting for responses but thought I would ask here to see if anyone had any ideas.
Any thougts??
Many thanks
If the former then there isn't really much you can do.
If the latter then get a quote for changing it and then offer to pay him a fair % of the cost for a piece of signed paper permitting your guttering.
The other alternative is to bill the builders or architect for this fault.
You say you built 'up to the boundary' well if this was the case what comments were made when the Party Structure notice was served? If you have built a wall (ignoring foundations) wholely on your land then the guttering is trepsassing on your Neighbours land. If you have raised a Party Wall over the boundary then the gutter is not.
I never see the point in raising a wholely on one persons land. How are you going to gain access to for maintenance? If it were a Party Wall you have well established precedents for access and maintenance. The recent 'Access to Land' legislation has yet to be proven and thus toothless.
On the face of it there seems to be a fundamental flaw in your choice of design - I assume in an attempt to avoid Party Wall costs.
It sounds like this guy has seen an opportunity to make some easy money - along with cost of the land I pressume he'll demand thet you cover all the legal fees too - and is taking it.
As you agreed the final design your only recourse to the Architect / Designer would be if they failed to inform you of this potential problem.
A cheaper solution (rather than £15-£20k on the land) maybe to raise a parapit wall atop your wall and run a concealed gutter to discharge to the front and rear of your property. Don't know how this will blend into your property though.
I never see the point in raising a wholely on one persons land. How are you going to gain access to for maintenance? If it were a Party Wall you have well established precedents for access and maintenance. The recent 'Access to Land' legislation has yet to be proven and thus toothless.
On the face of it there seems to be a fundamental flaw in your choice of design - I assume in an attempt to avoid Party Wall costs.
It sounds like this guy has seen an opportunity to make some easy money - along with cost of the land I pressume he'll demand thet you cover all the legal fees too - and is taking it.
As you agreed the final design your only recourse to the Architect / Designer would be if they failed to inform you of this potential problem.
A cheaper solution (rather than £15-£20k on the land) maybe to raise a parapit wall atop your wall and run a concealed gutter to discharge to the front and rear of your property. Don't know how this will blend into your property though.
This is only a general strategy I talking about, and I don't know any of the specificities of the scheme, and my information is NOT to be relied upon.
OK. First, appoint a chartered surveyor to assess whether the gutter is overhanging. It's really important that you cough up a couple of hundred quid now and get a professional on board. It sounds as if there has be no architect involvement and you have just had a builder working for you. He or she has dropped you in the Sh**t, and if you don't get an informed opinion now, you won't get out anytime soon.
Overhanging gutters like this occur frequently - but its not OK without prior permission. To construct a parapet with hidden gutter is technically feasible, but my guess is you will have to create a shortened eaves, cutting back the roof finish, which is expensive (assuming pitched roof, not flat). Don't take the rainwater inside your house at any stage.
It may be that upon examination the gutter is protruding but the slates not. Might be possible to remove the gutter and have the rainwater drip on to neighbour's property, if that's legally permissible (check with surveyors/lawyers first), it might be a stick to wave at the neighbour. It would make for a dirty wall finish and a wet neighbour, but if he doesn't want the gutter, that may be what he's going to get - Does he really want that??
Finally, what did the neighbour agree to? If he agreed to drawings, and they show the gutter, then he's going back on his word - did he support the planning application?... don't tell me, there isn't one.
Keep smiling and don't flash the cash.
OK. First, appoint a chartered surveyor to assess whether the gutter is overhanging. It's really important that you cough up a couple of hundred quid now and get a professional on board. It sounds as if there has be no architect involvement and you have just had a builder working for you. He or she has dropped you in the Sh**t, and if you don't get an informed opinion now, you won't get out anytime soon.
Overhanging gutters like this occur frequently - but its not OK without prior permission. To construct a parapet with hidden gutter is technically feasible, but my guess is you will have to create a shortened eaves, cutting back the roof finish, which is expensive (assuming pitched roof, not flat). Don't take the rainwater inside your house at any stage.
It may be that upon examination the gutter is protruding but the slates not. Might be possible to remove the gutter and have the rainwater drip on to neighbour's property, if that's legally permissible (check with surveyors/lawyers first), it might be a stick to wave at the neighbour. It would make for a dirty wall finish and a wet neighbour, but if he doesn't want the gutter, that may be what he's going to get - Does he really want that??
Finally, what did the neighbour agree to? If he agreed to drawings, and they show the gutter, then he's going back on his word - did he support the planning application?... don't tell me, there isn't one.
Keep smiling and don't flash the cash.
Two problems with just removing the gutter.
1. Rain water shooting off the roof may cause damage to you neighbour's land.
2. Rain water running down the outside of your wall will cause additional maintenance that you don't have access to undertake.
Could it be too much Grand Designs and Property Ladder and not enough Professional help?
1. Rain water shooting off the roof may cause damage to you neighbour's land.
2. Rain water running down the outside of your wall will cause additional maintenance that you don't have access to undertake.
Could it be too much Grand Designs and Property Ladder and not enough Professional help?
Only my two penneth, but could you just keep quiet, and see if this guys "threat" actually turns into anything? Clearly it may be worth getting a party wall surveyor to look at it, but your Architects should have looked into this before actually starting work etc etc etc.
I would the see what they say, and just see if this guy actually takes it further???
I would the see what they say, and just see if this guy actually takes it further???
As I understand it (and not formal advice):
From a legal stand point in traditional law when you purchase a plot of land you purchase it from the centre of the earth to the stars. However, in reality that isn't quite correct - for example in Clifton v Viscount Bury (1887) the decided that to fire a bullet accross someone elses land did not constitute trespass - and its thanks to this that aircraft can fly above your house. However in the case of your property it sounds like this could be considered to be at a height which may reasonably cause your neighbour nuisance, and or intrude on their land either by light or preventing certain uses of their own land (Baron Bernstein v Skyviews (1978)). In order to 'over sail' anothers property it is required to seek an 'over sail licence' and technically without one your neighbour could seek an injunction against your building. I presume it was constructed with planning/building regs etc?
Your neighbour needs to be careful, as an oversail licence will typically fetch a percentage of the cost of the work it would take to rectify the problem. i.e. if it would cost you 5 grand to sort it, he couldn't charge you 5 grand for the oversail licence as it likely that the courts would view this as unreasonable behavour and thus suspend an injunction if applied for.
The basic crux of this is that yes - technically you are in the wrong if it overhangs his property, and you need to resolve it. Either by removing the issue, or coming to an agreement with your neighbour (which needs to be formalised in the deeds).
Alternatively he could seek for you to have the problem resolved claiming an 'abatement of nuisance' possibly.
From a legal stand point in traditional law when you purchase a plot of land you purchase it from the centre of the earth to the stars. However, in reality that isn't quite correct - for example in Clifton v Viscount Bury (1887) the decided that to fire a bullet accross someone elses land did not constitute trespass - and its thanks to this that aircraft can fly above your house. However in the case of your property it sounds like this could be considered to be at a height which may reasonably cause your neighbour nuisance, and or intrude on their land either by light or preventing certain uses of their own land (Baron Bernstein v Skyviews (1978)). In order to 'over sail' anothers property it is required to seek an 'over sail licence' and technically without one your neighbour could seek an injunction against your building. I presume it was constructed with planning/building regs etc?
Your neighbour needs to be careful, as an oversail licence will typically fetch a percentage of the cost of the work it would take to rectify the problem. i.e. if it would cost you 5 grand to sort it, he couldn't charge you 5 grand for the oversail licence as it likely that the courts would view this as unreasonable behavour and thus suspend an injunction if applied for.
The basic crux of this is that yes - technically you are in the wrong if it overhangs his property, and you need to resolve it. Either by removing the issue, or coming to an agreement with your neighbour (which needs to be formalised in the deeds).
Alternatively he could seek for you to have the problem resolved claiming an 'abatement of nuisance' possibly.
Do you normally get on with your neighbour?
If not, it might be an idea to get someone to liase for you, so as to take the unpleasantness out of the situation and maybe negotiate a settlement - if you do find out that you're in the wrong.
Should it ever go to court, at least you've then tried to resolve the situation amicably.
If not, it might be an idea to get someone to liase for you, so as to take the unpleasantness out of the situation and maybe negotiate a settlement - if you do find out that you're in the wrong.
Should it ever go to court, at least you've then tried to resolve the situation amicably.
mk1fan said:
Two problems with just removing the gutter.
1. Rain water shooting off the roof may cause damage to you neighbour's land.
2. Rain water running down the outside of your wall will cause additional maintenance that you don't have access to undertake.
Could it be too much Grand Designs and Property Ladder and not enough Professional help?
Architect and main contractor was employed, took it up with them, looks like there is a solution with a box gutter system contractor has agreed to do it for nothing as it was his Fuc8 up. Thanks for all the constructive comments. 1. Rain water shooting off the roof may cause damage to you neighbour's land.
2. Rain water running down the outside of your wall will cause additional maintenance that you don't have access to undertake.
Could it be too much Grand Designs and Property Ladder and not enough Professional help?
Property ladder-NO.
Cheers
guys.
BAHN-STORMA said:
JOETHETOE said:
mk1fan said:
Two problems with just removing the gutter.
1. Rain water shooting off the roof may cause damage to you neighbour's land.
2. Rain water running down the outside of your wall will cause additional maintenance that you don't have access to undertake.
Could it be too much Grand Designs and Property Ladder and not enough Professional help?
Architect and main contractor was employed, took it up with them, looks like there is a solution with a box gutter system contractor has agreed to do it for nothing as it was his Fuc8 up. Thanks for all the constructive comments. 1. Rain water shooting off the roof may cause damage to you neighbour's land.
2. Rain water running down the outside of your wall will cause additional maintenance that you don't have access to undertake.
Could it be too much Grand Designs and Property Ladder and not enough Professional help?
Property ladder-NO.
Cheers
guys.
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