Question for jamesuk28
Discussion
Sorry James, everyone seems to after your advice these days. Just a quick one from me. Long story short. I sent off my paperwork to the DVLA after a car that was in my name was scrapped abroad. I had long forgotten about this until I get letter from a collection service demanding £80.00 as I have not paid the road tax. I contacted the DVLA and it looks like they never received the paperwork but have now removed the car from the database after I wrote to them. But they said they couldn't do anything about the debt collectors.
The debt collectors will not listen and keep demanding £80.00. Is there anything I can do or am I stuck and have to pay?
Thank you.
Paul
The debt collectors will not listen and keep demanding £80.00. Is there anything I can do or am I stuck and have to pay?
Thank you.
Paul
Hi James
Thanks for the reply. I guess they must have bought it from the them as the DVLA say there is nothing they can do about it now. This is the other problem I moved from that address shortly after, post was being forwarded by the house owner so I'm not 100% sure nothing came through, the owner says it didn't.
I also applied for a refund on the tax as there was a couple of months left, that didn't come through either and I only remembered that when the demand came through. I guess I'm stuck!
Thanks for the reply. I guess they must have bought it from the them as the DVLA say there is nothing they can do about it now. This is the other problem I moved from that address shortly after, post was being forwarded by the house owner so I'm not 100% sure nothing came through, the owner says it didn't.
I also applied for a refund on the tax as there was a couple of months left, that didn't come through either and I only remembered that when the demand came through. I guess I'm stuck!
Healey73 said:
Hi James
Thanks for the reply. I guess they must have bought it from the them as the DVLA say there is nothing they can do about it now. This is the other problem I moved from that address shortly after, post was being forwarded by the house owner so I'm not 100% sure nothing came through, the owner says it didn't.
I also applied for a refund on the tax as there was a couple of months left, that didn't come through either and I only remembered that when the demand came through. I guess I'm stuck!
I would not say you are stuck. The debt collectors in question need to have a consumer credit licence in order to collect debts direct from consumers, of which you are one for the debt in question.Thanks for the reply. I guess they must have bought it from the them as the DVLA say there is nothing they can do about it now. This is the other problem I moved from that address shortly after, post was being forwarded by the house owner so I'm not 100% sure nothing came through, the owner says it didn't.
I also applied for a refund on the tax as there was a couple of months left, that didn't come through either and I only remembered that when the demand came through. I guess I'm stuck!
First you need to ask them for their consumer credit licence number (a lot of firms dont bother with the licence or even know they require one, the OFT will come down on them like a ton of hot s
t)If they dont give you the number threaten to report them to the OFT unless they back off
If they give you the number check with the OFT that its genuine.
Assuming its genuine, tell them to issue a County Court Summons and state you will defend it and apply for incidential costs.
If they actually issue the summons decide if you wish to defend the claim (I would)
If you dont have the stomach for it pay the £80 when the summons arrives, they would have lost the court fee for the summons ie £30 so will only actually get £50.
Let me know how you get on.
It seems as though individuals need recorded delivery to prove they've posted documents, yet companies are happy to rely on Royal Mail when it suits them. It should be law the that debt collectors/bailiffs can't act unless it has been proven that the defendants were made aware of their (supposed) debt. Otherwise, what's to stop a company fabricating a story and documentation?
I hope the debt collectors back off and think twice in future before taking on other's debts.
Nice one James for your advice
I hope the debt collectors back off and think twice in future before taking on other's debts.
Nice one James for your advice
I had an almost identical problem and managed to dig up a couple of points in law which totally silenced the faceless debt recovery firm, I'll try and post them shortly.
From memory I quoted Section 7 of the interpretation act which deems that anything posted via the mail system which was correctly addressed with the correct postage is deemed as served after two working days (regardless of signature or even delivery!) and the onus is on the receipient to prove otherwise!!
I also found that it is illegal for the DVLA to issue a sorn fine without first obtaining a conviction against you for failing to buy your road fund license in the first place!
hopefully these pointers will help you out, especially if I can find the letter I sent them with exact points of law.
Regards
Paul.
Ok found the letter here are the important bits .....
With regard to the original V5 which was returned immediately after the sale of the vehicle, but has allegedly never arrived at the DVLA, this is a matter of incompetence/negligence by either the Royal Mail service for losing or not delivering the V5 or the DVLA for losing the V5 once received, neither of these events are under my control and as such I cannot be held liable. I correctly sent off the V5 and as such have complied with the interpretation Act 1978 of which Section 7 legislates where an Act of Parliament requires a document to be delivered by post then service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document - unless the contrary is proved, as yet neither yourselves or the DVLA have provided this proof!
The DVLA has issued me with a “penalty” for allegedly not registering my vehicle as SORN.
By virtue of the fact that the DVLA method of trial is a computer database and the postal system, I consider that the DVLA is acting Ultra Vires by attempting to extort monies from me without due legal process, as is my right under article 6 of the human rights convention and under the Bill of rights 1689. The DVLA is not a Court of Law nor is it a competent authority for the following reasons:
Article 6 of the given European Convention on Human Rights provides that -
"In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice."
The said appeals service offered by the said DVLA is not established in accordance with law, as required by the said Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights -
in that:
The basic laws of the United Kingdom as provided within the Common Law of the Kingdom of England with the Principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland, and as further enacted by the Crown and Parliament of the United Kingdom to the purpose of establishing and preserving the Civil Liberties of all people living within the territories of the United Kingdom –
which Common Law may not be repealed and which Statute Law remains un-repealed -
have been and are now being violated by the provisions of such enactment as now claims to provide lawful authority for the existence and conduct of the DVLA, but which fails to provide any such lawful authority, because of the given violations to Constitutional Laws and Provisions which retain the force of law.
In evidence of the submission given, a full reference is made to the text of the Common Law Charter of King Henry III, dated 1225 (the existence of which Charter is now evidenced by the text of the 1297 enactment of King Edward I and his parliament), and a further full reference is made to the several texts of the Declaration & Bill of Rights (variously dated February & December of 1689) –
which latter documents now serve to define and restrict the powers of the Crown in Parliament, to the purpose of preserving Peaceful Government under the Rule of Law,
Article 234 (formerly Article 177), of the Treaty establishing the legal entity that is now known as the European Union now provides -
• that the European Court of Justice shall have jurisdiction to
give preliminary rulings concerning -
(a) the interpretation of the Treaty;
(b) the validity and interpretation of acts (entered into) by the
institutions of the Community and/or by the European Bank;
(c) the interpretation of the statutes of bodies established by an
act of the Council, where those statutes so provide.
• Where such a question is raised before any court or tribunal
of a Member State, that court or tribunal may, if it considers
that a decision on the question is necessary to enable it to
give judgment, request the Court of Justice to give a ruling
thereon.
• Where any such question is raised in a case pending before
a court or tribunal of a Member State against whose decis-
ions there is no judicial remedy under national law, that court
or tribunal shall bring the matter before the Court of Justice.
Magna Carta of 1225, confirmed by the Statute of 1297.
"We will not pass upon him, nor [condemn him], but by lawful judgment of his peers, or by the Law of the Land."
I contend that the clear option as to method of trial is an option that belongs to me as my property, and that title to this property is confirmed by the Confirmation of Liberties given in Magna Carta-
"We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties underwritten, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever"
I also contend that the substantive law relevant to this hearing is further declared by the provisions of the Declaration of Rights and further secured by the Bill of Rights subsequently enacted -
"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void"
As such, I do not recognise the DVLA’s authority to issue penalties/fines nor have I had a trial within a competent criminal Court to find guilt under a section 31A offence of not procuring a vehicle licence. Should the DVLA insist on pursuing this unlawful course of action, then I request that you refer the matter to the European Court of Justice under article 234.
From memory I quoted Section 7 of the interpretation act which deems that anything posted via the mail system which was correctly addressed with the correct postage is deemed as served after two working days (regardless of signature or even delivery!) and the onus is on the receipient to prove otherwise!!
I also found that it is illegal for the DVLA to issue a sorn fine without first obtaining a conviction against you for failing to buy your road fund license in the first place!
hopefully these pointers will help you out, especially if I can find the letter I sent them with exact points of law.
Regards
Paul.
Ok found the letter here are the important bits .....
With regard to the original V5 which was returned immediately after the sale of the vehicle, but has allegedly never arrived at the DVLA, this is a matter of incompetence/negligence by either the Royal Mail service for losing or not delivering the V5 or the DVLA for losing the V5 once received, neither of these events are under my control and as such I cannot be held liable. I correctly sent off the V5 and as such have complied with the interpretation Act 1978 of which Section 7 legislates where an Act of Parliament requires a document to be delivered by post then service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document - unless the contrary is proved, as yet neither yourselves or the DVLA have provided this proof!
The DVLA has issued me with a “penalty” for allegedly not registering my vehicle as SORN.
By virtue of the fact that the DVLA method of trial is a computer database and the postal system, I consider that the DVLA is acting Ultra Vires by attempting to extort monies from me without due legal process, as is my right under article 6 of the human rights convention and under the Bill of rights 1689. The DVLA is not a Court of Law nor is it a competent authority for the following reasons:
Article 6 of the given European Convention on Human Rights provides that -
"In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice."
The said appeals service offered by the said DVLA is not established in accordance with law, as required by the said Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights -
in that:
The basic laws of the United Kingdom as provided within the Common Law of the Kingdom of England with the Principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland, and as further enacted by the Crown and Parliament of the United Kingdom to the purpose of establishing and preserving the Civil Liberties of all people living within the territories of the United Kingdom –
which Common Law may not be repealed and which Statute Law remains un-repealed -
have been and are now being violated by the provisions of such enactment as now claims to provide lawful authority for the existence and conduct of the DVLA, but which fails to provide any such lawful authority, because of the given violations to Constitutional Laws and Provisions which retain the force of law.
In evidence of the submission given, a full reference is made to the text of the Common Law Charter of King Henry III, dated 1225 (the existence of which Charter is now evidenced by the text of the 1297 enactment of King Edward I and his parliament), and a further full reference is made to the several texts of the Declaration & Bill of Rights (variously dated February & December of 1689) –
which latter documents now serve to define and restrict the powers of the Crown in Parliament, to the purpose of preserving Peaceful Government under the Rule of Law,
Article 234 (formerly Article 177), of the Treaty establishing the legal entity that is now known as the European Union now provides -
• that the European Court of Justice shall have jurisdiction to
give preliminary rulings concerning -
(a) the interpretation of the Treaty;
(b) the validity and interpretation of acts (entered into) by the
institutions of the Community and/or by the European Bank;
(c) the interpretation of the statutes of bodies established by an
act of the Council, where those statutes so provide.
• Where such a question is raised before any court or tribunal
of a Member State, that court or tribunal may, if it considers
that a decision on the question is necessary to enable it to
give judgment, request the Court of Justice to give a ruling
thereon.
• Where any such question is raised in a case pending before
a court or tribunal of a Member State against whose decis-
ions there is no judicial remedy under national law, that court
or tribunal shall bring the matter before the Court of Justice.
Magna Carta of 1225, confirmed by the Statute of 1297.
"We will not pass upon him, nor [condemn him], but by lawful judgment of his peers, or by the Law of the Land."
I contend that the clear option as to method of trial is an option that belongs to me as my property, and that title to this property is confirmed by the Confirmation of Liberties given in Magna Carta-
"We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties underwritten, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever"
I also contend that the substantive law relevant to this hearing is further declared by the provisions of the Declaration of Rights and further secured by the Bill of Rights subsequently enacted -
"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void"
As such, I do not recognise the DVLA’s authority to issue penalties/fines nor have I had a trial within a competent criminal Court to find guilt under a section 31A offence of not procuring a vehicle licence. Should the DVLA insist on pursuing this unlawful course of action, then I request that you refer the matter to the European Court of Justice under article 234.
Edited by ukdj on Thursday 4th December 13:54
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