What would you do
Poll: What would you do
Total Members Polled: 23
Discussion
We have a problem, I will try and make this short.
For some unknown reason, we took an order from an electrical company to install some equipment.
Here is the chain.
1. End client
2. Contractor/builder
3. Electrical company
4. Us
Now, number 4 has gone bust owing us a substantial amount of money, we retain title to ALL goods until fully paid.
This means, 1 has got our kit on-site, they paid 2, 2 did not pay 3, they went bust, we own the kit.
1 has a support contract with 4, us, it is less than the kit is worth.
I want to exercise our right to go on-site and pull out the kit, this is destructive as it is cabling, it will cost 1 far more to fix than the value we take out.
My point to our people is what is the point of having the "we retain ownership " clause if we are not willing to enforce it.
To put it another way.
If you bought a second hand car, did not do a HPI check and one day the finance company turns up and takes it back, what is the difference.
I know they may try and sue us for criminal damage, however, we would only be damaging our own kit.
And I do not think the client will renew the support contract.
So, what would you lot do.
For some unknown reason, we took an order from an electrical company to install some equipment.
Here is the chain.
1. End client
2. Contractor/builder
3. Electrical company
4. Us
Now, number 4 has gone bust owing us a substantial amount of money, we retain title to ALL goods until fully paid.
This means, 1 has got our kit on-site, they paid 2, 2 did not pay 3, they went bust, we own the kit.
1 has a support contract with 4, us, it is less than the kit is worth.
I want to exercise our right to go on-site and pull out the kit, this is destructive as it is cabling, it will cost 1 far more to fix than the value we take out.
My point to our people is what is the point of having the "we retain ownership " clause if we are not willing to enforce it.
To put it another way.
If you bought a second hand car, did not do a HPI check and one day the finance company turns up and takes it back, what is the difference.
I know they may try and sue us for criminal damage, however, we would only be damaging our own kit.
And I do not think the client will renew the support contract.
So, what would you lot do.
Plotloss said:
You cant go in and destroy walls to remove wire thats unpaid.
Active kit hanging off it yes but you would rightly be arrested for causing criminal damage if you wrecked the walls.
Its annoying and I have massive sympathy but there is a limit.
No damage to the walls, we can get to the cable and cut it, take the patch panels, job done.Active kit hanging off it yes but you would rightly be arrested for causing criminal damage if you wrecked the walls.
Its annoying and I have massive sympathy but there is a limit.
Ash,
Do you know ho the Architect / Quantity Surevyor are? try contacting them, and perhaps try see how it lays with them payment wise.
I think it will be a cicil matter. has th client definately paid / not paid the contractors?? can you contact them directly?
I would try hammer out an agreement witht he contator
Do you know ho the Architect / Quantity Surevyor are? try contacting them, and perhaps try see how it lays with them payment wise.
I think it will be a cicil matter. has th client definately paid / not paid the contractors?? can you contact them directly?
I would try hammer out an agreement witht he contator
Ash 996 GT2 said:
Plotloss said:
You cant go in and destroy walls to remove wire thats unpaid.
Active kit hanging off it yes but you would rightly be arrested for causing criminal damage if you wrecked the walls.
Its annoying and I have massive sympathy but there is a limit.
No damage to the walls, we can get to the cable and cut it, take the patch panels, job done.Active kit hanging off it yes but you would rightly be arrested for causing criminal damage if you wrecked the walls.
Its annoying and I have massive sympathy but there is a limit.
If you can get access to the site, which you'll have to request from the liquidators.
Also ROT is not at all straightforward, they may well contest it legally and then you'll have a fight on your hands.
We're going through something similar unfortunately.
Plotloss said:
Ash 996 GT2 said:
Plotloss said:
You cant go in and destroy walls to remove wire thats unpaid.
Active kit hanging off it yes but you would rightly be arrested for causing criminal damage if you wrecked the walls.
Its annoying and I have massive sympathy but there is a limit.
No damage to the walls, we can get to the cable and cut it, take the patch panels, job done.Active kit hanging off it yes but you would rightly be arrested for causing criminal damage if you wrecked the walls.
Its annoying and I have massive sympathy but there is a limit.
If you can get access to the site, which you'll have to request from the liquidators.
Also ROT is not at all straightforward, they may well contest it legally and then you'll have a fight on your hands.
We're going through something similar unfortunately.
What is the use of a contract in the first place!!!!
I hate dishonest people, I am always honest, never ever shied away from my responsibilities, if I owe money, I pay it.
Rant over.
one of my litigation colleagues said:
The ROT clause in his contract will only be enforceable against his immediate buyer (no 3 – who I presume is actually the insolvent company) – unless no 2 (and no 1) had express knowledge of it they will acquire good title – this means our man’s only claim is still against 3 who is insolvent. Even if there was a direct ROT claim against the person in possession – if it has been installed in walls it is unlikely that you would be able to get it back anyway if this would cause damage.
Unfortunately not the answer you were wanting - PM me if you want my colleagues details and he can chat through it with you.therealpigdog said:
one of my litigation colleagues said:
The ROT clause in his contract will only be enforceable against his immediate buyer (no 3 – who I presume is actually the insolvent company) – unless no 2 (and no 1) had express knowledge of it they will acquire good title – this means our man’s only claim is still against 3 who is insolvent. Even if there was a direct ROT claim against the person in possession – if it has been installed in walls it is unlikely that you would be able to get it back anyway if this would cause damage.
Unfortunately not the answer you were wanting - PM me if you want my colleagues details and he can chat through it with you.Your only claim is against the company you have a contract with.
What amounts of money are we talking about here?
The reason I say that is if you are for example owed £1000 out of a £5m build then there is the chance that someone up the chain would be willing to pay anyway if you are enough hassle!
JustinP1 said:
therealpigdog said:
one of my litigation colleagues said:
The ROT clause in his contract will only be enforceable against his immediate buyer (no 3 – who I presume is actually the insolvent company) – unless no 2 (and no 1) had express knowledge of it they will acquire good title – this means our man’s only claim is still against 3 who is insolvent. Even if there was a direct ROT claim against the person in possession – if it has been installed in walls it is unlikely that you would be able to get it back anyway if this would cause damage.
Unfortunately not the answer you were wanting - PM me if you want my colleagues details and he can chat through it with you.Your only claim is against the company you have a contract with.
What amounts of money are we talking about here?
The reason I say that is if you are for example owed £1000 out of a £5m build then there is the chance that someone up the chain would be willing to pay anyway if you are enough hassle!
Ash 996 GT2 said:
JustinP1 said:
therealpigdog said:
one of my litigation colleagues said:
The ROT clause in his contract will only be enforceable against his immediate buyer (no 3 – who I presume is actually the insolvent company) – unless no 2 (and no 1) had express knowledge of it they will acquire good title – this means our man’s only claim is still against 3 who is insolvent. Even if there was a direct ROT claim against the person in possession – if it has been installed in walls it is unlikely that you would be able to get it back anyway if this would cause damage.
Unfortunately not the answer you were wanting - PM me if you want my colleagues details and he can chat through it with you.Your only claim is against the company you have a contract with.
What amounts of money are we talking about here?
The reason I say that is if you are for example owed £1000 out of a £5m build then there is the chance that someone up the chain would be willing to pay anyway if you are enough hassle!
An idea:
Lets's say for example that the end customer discovered that instead of the cabling being 'ready', that small but vital parts of it were not complete, and as the chain above you is now bust, they are left with trying to debug problems whilst the risk of holding their whole development up and incurring a large cost.
Maybe they might want to deal with you direct then?
JustinP1 said:
Ash 996 GT2 said:
JustinP1 said:
therealpigdog said:
one of my litigation colleagues said:
The ROT clause in his contract will only be enforceable against his immediate buyer (no 3 – who I presume is actually the insolvent company) – unless no 2 (and no 1) had express knowledge of it they will acquire good title – this means our man’s only claim is still against 3 who is insolvent. Even if there was a direct ROT claim against the person in possession – if it has been installed in walls it is unlikely that you would be able to get it back anyway if this would cause damage.
Unfortunately not the answer you were wanting - PM me if you want my colleagues details and he can chat through it with you.Your only claim is against the company you have a contract with.
What amounts of money are we talking about here?
The reason I say that is if you are for example owed £1000 out of a £5m build then there is the chance that someone up the chain would be willing to pay anyway if you are enough hassle!
We got sucked in. The contractor said they would pay us if we finished the job, if we did not finish, the client would not pay them.
Rock and a hard place.
I am just going to have to write it off and put it down to experience.
If I had known a chain was involved I would have said no to the order, it sneaked passed me.
Live and learn.
Thanks, the amount is not the issue, I am stubborn and determined, but it is a lot more than 1K, enough for anyone in the chain to dodge it.
An idea:
Lets's say for example that the end customer discovered that instead of the cabling being 'ready', that small but vital parts of it were not complete, and as the chain above you is now bust, they are left with trying to debug problems whilst the risk of holding their whole development up and incurring a large cost.
Maybe they might want to deal with you direct then?
In my experience if you have to refer to contracts or terms in the building industry your stuffed.
My advice is move on, Its worth having a word with the end user to see if he has parted with all of the money for the project. However if I was the end user I wouldn't part with another penny until the administrators confirmed they had made full claim. The client will be concerned that he might end up paying twice for the same job otherwise.
The building trade relly is crap at times.
My advice is move on, Its worth having a word with the end user to see if he has parted with all of the money for the project. However if I was the end user I wouldn't part with another penny until the administrators confirmed they had made full claim. The client will be concerned that he might end up paying twice for the same job otherwise.
The building trade relly is crap at times.
Reminds me of a case we had, where we had just supplied some IT kit (laptops, printers) to a customer, who then went into administration. We spoke to the administrators, described the kit, gave them the serial numbers, Ts & Cs etc - they then confirmed all the information we had given them matched but - we'd have to wait a few months to see what would happen to it.
Suspecting that it would just end up being auctioned to pay for their bloody fees, I contacted someone within the company who assisted us (basically by by telling us where the administrators were within the building) and we dashed in, grabbed the kit and left. The administrators literally chased us across the street.
It felt bloody good.
Suspecting that it would just end up being auctioned to pay for their bloody fees, I contacted someone within the company who assisted us (basically by by telling us where the administrators were within the building) and we dashed in, grabbed the kit and left. The administrators literally chased us across the street.
It felt bloody good.
Same script as what's happened to us for almost £50k.
Unless you have a signed and witnessed document from Company 3 stating that your Retention of Title clause prevails over theirs then I'm afraid, once the equipment has been installed, it's game over.
Even if they don't have a ROT clause in their order/contract with you it will be deemed that their standard T&C's/JCT's T&C's will apply - which invariably will have a ROT clause that won't work in your favour.
If the equipment wasn't installed and was still in stock/unfitted/etc then you may stand half a chance of getting some back.
It's all wrong and IMHO the government should address this kind of thing as this is what probably puts a lot of businesses out of business by them not being able to claw back and liquidise what is rightfully theirs.
It'll never happen though. You have my sympathy - it pisses me right off...
Rick.
Unless you have a signed and witnessed document from Company 3 stating that your Retention of Title clause prevails over theirs then I'm afraid, once the equipment has been installed, it's game over.
Even if they don't have a ROT clause in their order/contract with you it will be deemed that their standard T&C's/JCT's T&C's will apply - which invariably will have a ROT clause that won't work in your favour.
If the equipment wasn't installed and was still in stock/unfitted/etc then you may stand half a chance of getting some back.
It's all wrong and IMHO the government should address this kind of thing as this is what probably puts a lot of businesses out of business by them not being able to claw back and liquidise what is rightfully theirs.
It'll never happen though. You have my sympathy - it pisses me right off...
Rick.
Edited by RJD223 on Friday 23 January 23:53
Get yourself to site, take a couple of guys with you, obtain access to the building if possible (ie do not use force). If you can get in unhindered then cut your cables and retrieve anything that you retain title on. If at any point challenged explain exactly what you are doing and why and invite the other party to call the police. Do not at any time use physical force on anyone. If the police rock up, they will be uninterested at best, it being perceived as a purely civil matter unless anyone is daft enough to kick off.
I have used this method to clear a couple of sites of at least some value, and find that provided you are assertive and authoritative in your approach, few people will challenge you. If they do, either call the police yourself or invite them to - this buys you another 20mins plus to keep doing what you need to. And as I said, as possession is 9/10ths of the law and it is a civil matter, plod really cannot be bothered.
Personally, I would go and cut the cables on principle alone. You only need do it once and word soon travels around the trade that you are not to be messed about. It's one of the best forms of credit control there is.
I have used this method to clear a couple of sites of at least some value, and find that provided you are assertive and authoritative in your approach, few people will challenge you. If they do, either call the police yourself or invite them to - this buys you another 20mins plus to keep doing what you need to. And as I said, as possession is 9/10ths of the law and it is a civil matter, plod really cannot be bothered.
Personally, I would go and cut the cables on principle alone. You only need do it once and word soon travels around the trade that you are not to be messed about. It's one of the best forms of credit control there is.
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