Any Telecoms tracing experts?

[jamesuk28]

We have had a number of dodgy calls to our debt recovery firm over the last few weeks. We are quite use to this and can usually trace the call even from withheld numbers, and deal with the caller to the extent we can guarantee they get the message and dont try it again.

However our latest adversory is using different tactics, the calls come from mobile numbers (all different) and the mobile number's legit owner has nothing to do with the call, of this we are sure.

What kind of technology are they using? SIM cloning? we are very keen to meet with this caller so we can get our point firmly across.

[Minnsy]

Hi James,

Unlikly to be SIM cloning as you need the origional SIM card to make the copy. Much more likely to CLI spoofing. Essentially the presentation CLI is the number that is displayed on your handset (mobile or fixed) which in normal practice would be the call originators telephone number. However this can be spoofed, and a different presentation CLI displayed to give the impression of the call originating from a certain number, which it wasn't. You call up the CLI number (as you have done) and they have no idea what you are talking about.

Recently was discussed in the House of Lords , and I think this thread might be of interest.

http://www.wirelessforums.org/uk-telecom-voip/cli-...

Cheers

[AAT1981]

Hi JamesUK

Yes they can also use a landline ISDN30 to do this, they must be using either the NTL Telewest or Thus (Cable and Wireless) nework to do this.

Basically the phone system, or dialler can be programmed to send out any CLI specified in the system, i.e if you call out you can use any number to display on the mobile handset or using 1571.

This is called TYPE 5 CLI Presentation, and is legal, but the company using this must sign a consent form and issue all of the numbers they will display to the network or re seller. We have had a number of issues with this with our customers also having the same issues in the finanical and home improvement sectors. It is vertually impossible to trace, and the number you call back if unaware of any calls made to you.

Are all the calls from the same network? i.e orange, voda, T Mob?

Let me know, will try and help if you want.

[kryten]

Various ways that this can occur. Despite showing a UK CLI there's nothing to guarantee the calls actually originated on a UK network for a start!

[Boosted LS1]

Sounds like he could be a nasty piece of work, watch out for a carrier bag with something heavy in it. He isn't a fool.

[john_p]

The CLI override thing can be done easily with text messages, and also with VOIP calls (but in the latter case the service provider will have had to sign a disclaimer). You are best to speak to your telephony provider and see if they will investigate at all.

[jamesuk28]

Is there anyway of tracing the caller? I have a list of the mobile numbers that the call pretended to come from, the number they dialled to get us, and can get exact dates and times the calls were made, down to the second.

[kryten]

If the numbers being presented are spoofed then those actual numbers are of no benefit.

At that point, the only place you can go is the provider of the number they are reaching you on.

They should be able to figure out from which network the calls were passed to them, if they were flagged as having national (UK) or international origin and the interconnect point. If they're a large provider with many interconnect points then the actual interconnect point that it arrived on is often a good indicator of how/where the call originated. And then you follow the chain...

However, the issue you have is that _you_ want the info and they won't be allowed to give it to you - they'll only surrender it to the police or other authorised authority.

[jamesuk28]

kryten said:

If the numbers being presented are spoofed then those actual numbers are of no benefit.

At that point, the only place you can go is the provider of the number they are reaching you on.

They should be able to figure out from which network the calls were passed to them, if they were flagged as having national (UK) or international origin and the interconnect point. If they're a large provider with many interconnect points then the actual interconnect point that it arrived on is often a good indicator of how/where the call originated. And then you follow the chain...

However, the issue you have is that _you_ want the info and they won't be allowed to give it to you - they'll only surrender it to the police or other authorised authority.

Thanks for that, already considered the fact they won't release the info to us, unless perhaps we start a civil suit against the caller and get a court order for them to release the information. We are prepared to spend whatever it costs to track down the culprit and "Rectify" the situation.

[Martial Arts Man]

James, all this "rectifying" etc talk is unbecoming. A little sinister too.

Always had you down as a straight forward debt collector........

What exactly are you planning to do to this nuisance?

[Jasandjules]

Suggest you inform the police about this because this person may not be someone to f**k with. Whilst I can appreciate you are a big boy etc. and able to take care of yourself, in life there is always someone bigger and better, and this sounds like a seriously p***ed off person you recovered some money from, or a friend of the same.... And someone who knows what they are doing as well.

[skwdenyer]

jamesuk28 said:

We have had a number of dodgy calls to our debt recovery firm over the last few weeks. We are quite use to this and can usually trace the call even from withheld numbers, and deal with the caller to the extent we can guarantee they get the message and dont try it again.

The very fact that you "can usually trace the call even from withheld numbers" and that you "deal with the caller to the extent we can guarantee they get the message and dont try it again" suggests that (a) you have access to resources which are bordering on the (if not actually) illegal, and (b) that in consequence you don't have the moral high ground to be asking what you're asking.

If you have a published number then you deal with whatever comes your way. If you are in the debt collection business then I would say that "a bit of verbal" is part of the pact you sign up to when you go into such a business.

As others have suggested, there are legal and legitimate ways to proceed. Those are widely known and publicised. If you're considering anything other than the correct process to deal with such a situation then I'm afraid that you really shouldn't expect others to help you IMHO.

I'm sorry to sound a little "moral" about this, but the rules are the same for everybody here.

[jamesuk28]

To the last three posters above this, thanks for your words of wisdom, however we will deal with this situation as we see fit. You do not know what the threats where and I would wager that if you where faced will similair threats you would react in the same manner, unless of course you wish to rely on our wholly inadequate police service and judiciary.

If someone plays outside the rules, as in this case, they will be dealt with, if you don't like that then close your eyes.

We are use to a lot of verbal abuse, we take it like big boys, but their is a line and if crossed then its a whole new ball game.

To the second poster in particular, thanks for the warning but if we were shrinking violets we would be in the wrong game

Edited by jamesuk28 on Friday 1st May 20:55

[jamesuk28]

skwdenyer said:

jamesuk28 said:

We have had a number of dodgy calls to our debt recovery firm over the last few weeks. We are quite use to this and can usually trace the call even from withheld numbers, and deal with the caller to the extent we can guarantee they get the message and dont try it again.

The very fact that you "can usually trace the call even from withheld numbers" and that you "deal with the caller to the extent we can guarantee they get the message and dont try it again" suggests that (a) you have access to resources which are bordering on the (if not actually) illegal, and (b) that in consequence you don't have the moral high ground to be asking what you're asking.

If you have a published number then you deal with whatever comes your way. If you are in the debt collection business then I would say that "a bit of verbal" is part of the pact you sign up to when you go into such a business.

As others have suggested, there are legal and legitimate ways to proceed. Those are widely known and publicised. If you're considering anything other than the correct process to deal with such a situation then I'm afraid that you really shouldn't expect others to help you IMHO.

I'm sorry to sound a little "moral" about this, but the rules are the same for everybody here.

Yes, you are right it does sound "moral" so thanks for the lecture but well......... I guess you can fill in the blanks.

Edited by jamesuk28 on Friday 1st May 21:11

[Jasandjules]

jamesuk28 said:

unless of course you wish to rely on our wholly inadequate police service and judiciary.

Not at all I am sad to say these days.

But then given your approach I'd suggest it may be prudent to remove this thread? I am sure someone who can do this to help you may well do this for you via pm....

[jamesuk28]

Jasandjules said:

jamesuk28 said:

unless of course you wish to rely on our wholly inadequate police service and judiciary.

Not at all I am sad to say these days.

But then given your approach I'd suggest it may be prudent to remove this thread? I am sure someone who can do this to help you may well do this for you via pm....

But your the ones who read something sinister into my comments, when was the word "rectify" a crime? Don't jump to conclusions, we are debt collectors not the Mafia.

[Jasandjules]

Uh no, I didn't mention rectify.

In any event, many things put in writing can be seen to be worse than intended due to inflections in the voice and body language etc...

[skwdenyer]

jamesuk28 said:

Jasandjules said:

jamesuk28 said:

unless of course you wish to rely on our wholly inadequate police service and judiciary.

Not at all I am sad to say these days.

But then given your approach I'd suggest it may be prudent to remove this thread? I am sure someone who can do this to help you may well do this for you via pm....

But your the ones who read something sinister into my comments, when was the word "rectify" a crime? Don't jump to conclusions, we are debt collectors not the Mafia.

I didn't read anything into "rectify". I read something in to your admission of a criminal offence (tracing a withheld number).

[skwdenyer]

jamesuk28 said:

skwdenyer said:

jamesuk28 said:

We have had a number of dodgy calls to our debt recovery firm over the last few weeks. We are quite use to this and can usually trace the call even from withheld numbers, and deal with the caller to the extent we can guarantee they get the message and dont try it again.

The very fact that you "can usually trace the call even from withheld numbers" and that you "deal with the caller to the extent we can guarantee they get the message and dont try it again" suggests that (a) you have access to resources which are bordering on the (if not actually) illegal, and (b) that in consequence you don't have the moral high ground to be asking what you're asking.

If you have a published number then you deal with whatever comes your way. If you are in the debt collection business then I would say that "a bit of verbal" is part of the pact you sign up to when you go into such a business.

As others have suggested, there are legal and legitimate ways to proceed. Those are widely known and publicised. If you're considering anything other than the correct process to deal with such a situation then I'm afraid that you really shouldn't expect others to help you IMHO.

I'm sorry to sound a little "moral" about this, but the rules are the same for everybody here.

Yes, you are right it does sound "moral" so thanks for the lecture but well......... I guess you can fill in the blanks.

Edited by jamesuk28 on Friday 1st May 21:11

I must say I'm very confused by your position here. You've started out by admitting openly to being able to do things which you cannot IMHO legally do. With that as your starting point, you've then used words from which many have inferred other slightly "grey" constructions of what you might mean on the other issues.

You posted. You chose those words. You elected to admit what you've admitted. To suggest that others are not entitled to a view on what you've posted in a public forum is a little strange, to say the least.

I cannot pass judgement on your particular business practices. What little I have experienced of the debt collection industry does not lead me to believe that many would choose it as a vocation based upon their desire to be reasonable, polite, patient, honest, truthful, or have the slightest moral scruples, however. I hope, for your sake, that you are the exception there. But there again, people sharing the above characteristics, in my experience, tend not to be on the receiving end of sustained verbal abuse by people playing games with the telephone system. As you say, "fill in the blanks"...

[Jasandjules]

skwdenyer said:

. But there again, people sharing the above characteristics, in my experience, tend not to be on the receiving end of sustained verbal abuse by people playing games with the telephone system. As you say, "fill in the blanks"...

Well, being realistic, even an honest, reasonable, polite and charming debt collector just doing their job in as reasonable fashion as expected and in line with the law is highly likely to get abuse and threats IMHO - the simple nature of the job means people are not going to be keen to see you, nor indeed what you have to do (removing stuff etc)..