Discussion
If possible, I'd like abit of clarification on this one.
At the moment, we're getting hounded by a company called PRS for Music who want to know if we have a radio on our premises that can be heard by either our members of staff or the general public. If we do have a radio broadcasting music, we must apparently pay a licensing fee or we may possibly have to pay a fairly hefty fine.
I've done a little bit of reading into this and it appears as though PRS for Music is allegedly a non-profit organisation that charges an annual licensing fee which is then distributed to the writers and publishers of the music. I don't doubt that they are a legitimate organisation but I do strongly doubt as to whether or not they are a non-profit organisation.
Ignoring the fact that I think the whole idea is absurd, I'd quite like to know if there are any exceptions to this new ruling?
We run a manufacturing company and operate our shop floor with restricted access, i.e. no members of public will be found wondering around our factory. Does this make any difference or would we still have to purchase a license just for our staff to listen to the radio? If you do have to purchase a license for your staff, do you only pay it if you have over a certain number of staff working for you?
Any advice is welcome.
At the moment, we're getting hounded by a company called PRS for Music who want to know if we have a radio on our premises that can be heard by either our members of staff or the general public. If we do have a radio broadcasting music, we must apparently pay a licensing fee or we may possibly have to pay a fairly hefty fine.
I've done a little bit of reading into this and it appears as though PRS for Music is allegedly a non-profit organisation that charges an annual licensing fee which is then distributed to the writers and publishers of the music. I don't doubt that they are a legitimate organisation but I do strongly doubt as to whether or not they are a non-profit organisation.
Ignoring the fact that I think the whole idea is absurd, I'd quite like to know if there are any exceptions to this new ruling?
We run a manufacturing company and operate our shop floor with restricted access, i.e. no members of public will be found wondering around our factory. Does this make any difference or would we still have to purchase a license just for our staff to listen to the radio? If you do have to purchase a license for your staff, do you only pay it if you have over a certain number of staff working for you?
Any advice is welcome.
PRS = Performing Rights Society
Body which manages collection of royalties for any public broadcast/playing of music and ensures the royalties are distributed back to the artists.
Allegedly.
ETA: Yes, if you have any music playing via radio or other player, it is a 'public' performance (i.e. not private/domestic) so you need a license - same with restaurants, pubs...
Body which manages collection of royalties for any public broadcast/playing of music and ensures the royalties are distributed back to the artists.
Allegedly.
ETA: Yes, if you have any music playing via radio or other player, it is a 'public' performance (i.e. not private/domestic) so you need a license - same with restaurants, pubs...
Edited by Size Nine Elm on Thursday 21st January 15:08
PRS been around for donkeys years. Totally legit industry body working to protect the rights of performers. They are a bit like a music version of the tv licence people. For example I've worked in both commercial and BBC radio stations in past life's and "PRS returns" (and MCPS returns) were a part of the admin in both - logging how long records were on air for, artist, title yadda yadda etc. so that payments can be collected and passed to the artists/writers.
I wonder if, given the current financial climate together with the current state of the music industry, they are being a bit more proactive with their usual investigations/enforcement.
I wonder if, given the current financial climate together with the current state of the music industry, they are being a bit more proactive with their usual investigations/enforcement.
Edited by mattdaniels on Thursday 21st January 15:57
mattdaniels said:
Totally legit industry body working to protect the rights of performers.
Quite often threads about them. For example:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
There are plenty of cases when a license is not required. Staff listening to individual music with headphones is one, or playing a live broadcast on equipment that you offer for sale is another.
The PRS's tactics have come under very heavy criticism. Their attitude is more like a debt collector than a company selling a license for an optional service.
They tried to tell me once that because our works vehicles had stereos in, we needed a license because staff might listen to the radio with the windows down or loud volume and passers by might hear.
They told one elderly shop assistant that her business needed a license because of her *singing* copyright music to herself while she worked, that one made the BBC news, there was quite some embarrassment and an apology.
I'd have no problem buying a license if they'd ever been remotely pleasant when I've dealt with them. They annoyed me so much that I'd rather structure things to take advantage of an exception, or just not have copyright music in the workplace rather than add to their coffers.
Tol
ETA:
You are not obliged to tell them anything about your past music use, so don't.
If you enter into a contract with them for a license, then they can set the cost of that (within contract law). If you tell them you want a retrospective license, they can set a higher cost on that.
They can't fine you or issue a penalty under contract law, and your only legal relationship with them is contractual.
If you want to play music that would require a license, buy one. They would be absolutely insane to try and pursue you as a paying customer for music use that might have happened before they got in touch, and if you've given them no evidence of that, they'd have no case anyway.
Tol
The PRS's tactics have come under very heavy criticism. Their attitude is more like a debt collector than a company selling a license for an optional service.
They tried to tell me once that because our works vehicles had stereos in, we needed a license because staff might listen to the radio with the windows down or loud volume and passers by might hear.
They told one elderly shop assistant that her business needed a license because of her *singing* copyright music to herself while she worked, that one made the BBC news, there was quite some embarrassment and an apology.
I'd have no problem buying a license if they'd ever been remotely pleasant when I've dealt with them. They annoyed me so much that I'd rather structure things to take advantage of an exception, or just not have copyright music in the workplace rather than add to their coffers.
Tol
ETA:
Robatr0n said:
we may possibly have to pay a fairly hefty fine.
- Only* a court or public authority exercising delegated legal power can fine you.
You are not obliged to tell them anything about your past music use, so don't.
If you enter into a contract with them for a license, then they can set the cost of that (within contract law). If you tell them you want a retrospective license, they can set a higher cost on that.
They can't fine you or issue a penalty under contract law, and your only legal relationship with them is contractual.
If you want to play music that would require a license, buy one. They would be absolutely insane to try and pursue you as a paying customer for music use that might have happened before they got in touch, and if you've given them no evidence of that, they'd have no case anyway.
Tol
Edited by Anatol on Thursday 21st January 16:41
Edited by Anatol on Thursday 21st January 16:44
When I spoke to them over the phone they were extremely pleaseant and we even shared a feww jokes. I asked, "If I happen to accidently hear the radio which my wife may be playing in the kitchen, whilst I am working in my office, do I suddenly become liable to pay the licence fee"?
The answer is "Yes", but only if I had an employee.
The answer is "Yes", but only if I had an employee.
Anatol said:
You are not obliged to tell them anything about your past music use, so don't.
If you enter into a contract with them for a license, then they can set the cost of that (within contract law). If you tell them you want a retrospective license, they can set a higher cost on that.
They can't fine you or issue a penalty under contract law, and your only legal relationship with them is contractual.
If you want to play music that would require a license, buy one. They would be absolutely insane to try and pursue you as a paying customer for music use that might have happened before they got in touch, and if you've given them no evidence of that, they'd have no case anyway.
Tol
I agree with the rest of your sentiments, but that point isn't actually right.If you enter into a contract with them for a license, then they can set the cost of that (within contract law). If you tell them you want a retrospective license, they can set a higher cost on that.
They can't fine you or issue a penalty under contract law, and your only legal relationship with them is contractual.
If you want to play music that would require a license, buy one. They would be absolutely insane to try and pursue you as a paying customer for music use that might have happened before they got in touch, and if you've given them no evidence of that, they'd have no case anyway.
Tol
The relationship is not a contractual one, it is a case of licencing. If you are currently using copyrighted work without permission then the copyright holder is entitled to sue you for damages, whether that is printed work, video work, or musical works.
In my local paper there was quite a high profile case where a local business was being chased for about 5 years worth of licence. Basically they buried their heads for so long and ignored contact until the PRS took them to court. In court they admitted how long they were playing music for and they got hit with 5 years of licence as well as the legal and court costs leaving them with a £20,000 bill.
It is unlikely that a small business will end up with a bill that big as most businesses pay £100 a year or so - but the chasing does happen, it happens all the time, and so many times they know exactly how to catch you.
So, the answer is simple:
If the benefit to your employees/customers is worth the value of the licence then pay it.
If it isn't don't pay and turn the music off, and write to them saying that you currently do not play music, but if you choose to in the future you will contact them.
Robatr0n said:
Thanks for the responses guys.
Eric, you say that this license must be payed if you broadcast music in a public place but would this extend to an industrial factory unit where no members of the public would be found?
Public = more than one person. The only way around it is to give all of your workers personal radios with headphones.Eric, you say that this license must be payed if you broadcast music in a public place but would this extend to an industrial factory unit where no members of the public would be found?
Edited by shakotan on Thursday 21st January 17:29
I may be way off the mark but do PRS represent all music writers and performers or just 'thier' members?
Taken from their website "We exist to collect and pay royalties to our members when their music is exploited in one of a number of ways – when it is recorded onto any format and distributed to the public, performed or played in public, broadcast or made publicly available online."
Their tactics are very questionable stating they are acting on behalf of writers, performers and composers. I bet when questioned they would be reluctant to provide a list of the writers, performers and composers.
Taken from their website "We exist to collect and pay royalties to our members when their music is exploited in one of a number of ways – when it is recorded onto any format and distributed to the public, performed or played in public, broadcast or made publicly available online."
Their tactics are very questionable stating they are acting on behalf of writers, performers and composers. I bet when questioned they would be reluctant to provide a list of the writers, performers and composers.
I was listening to the radio for 30 minutes a day in my own office. They told me the license was £250 a year. Needless to say I dont listen anymore. Even news radio is PRS licensable as the jingles/ads might have more than 30 secs worth of music. They take no prisoners.
There has been a battle with Kwikfit going on for ages. You even need a license if you listen to a customers radio whilst fixing their car. Only option is headphones or no radio.
I was under the impression that the radio stations pay to play the music too.
There has been a battle with Kwikfit going on for ages. You even need a license if you listen to a customers radio whilst fixing their car. Only option is headphones or no radio.
I was under the impression that the radio stations pay to play the music too.
silver.fox.2008 said:
I may be way off the mark but do PRS represent all music writers and performers or just 'thier' members?
Taken from their website "We exist to collect and pay royalties to our members when their music is exploited in one of a number of ways – when it is recorded onto any format and distributed to the public, performed or played in public, broadcast or made publicly available online."
Their tactics are very questionable stating they are acting on behalf of writers, performers and composers. I bet when questioned they would be reluctant to provide a list of the writers, performers and composers.
Why don't you ask them?Taken from their website "We exist to collect and pay royalties to our members when their music is exploited in one of a number of ways – when it is recorded onto any format and distributed to the public, performed or played in public, broadcast or made publicly available online."
Their tactics are very questionable stating they are acting on behalf of writers, performers and composers. I bet when questioned they would be reluctant to provide a list of the writers, performers and composers.
They actually have a catalogue of the artists and songs they cover.
Our clients apply for MCPS recording licences every week. It is actually quite rare to find a song which isn't covered by the MCPS.
Redarress said:
What if th radios in the workplace are supplied and owned by one of the employees and are battery operated. Surely I as the company owner am not guilty of supplying music to my staff ?
Are they are your premises?If they are then either you or your company needs a licence.
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