Power of Attorney advice

[XJSJohn]

Folks,

Appreciate any advice / past experiences / professional advisories on this.

My father back in the UK has got to the stage where he wants to sign over Power of Attorney to myself and one other person of my choosing.

Some background

- Dad is now 70 and a Multiple Sclerosis sufferer who has recently taken the decision that he needs to move into a professional care home, which obviously has high overheads but also the necessary professional support for him. This does however start to affect his freedom etc and he is one very independent stubborn old cuss (the reason he is still with us and very sound of mind if not body)

I plan to engage the services of an old friend who is also my accountant as the second person on the Power of Attorney because of his professional attitude, accountancy knowledge where necessary, trust and because he is in the UK and in reasonably close proximity to my father (plus they have met before)

Is there anything that I should be aware of / look into specifically in this situation? Given that I suspect that fairly soon thereafter I will have to manage his investments and assets too!

I will be doing this mostly from overseas!

Parents, we cause them 18 years of grief then ps off, then they cause us a lifetime of hassle thereafter!!! But I guess we have to love them!

[therealpigdog]

I'm in the process of helping a family member sort things out. One thing to be careful about is what can be done by one attorney, and what needs all attorneys.

If using a "professional" attorney - check what fees are payable (if any), and that the power gives authority to pay them.

The hardest part for me is getting the family member to consider some of the situations where we might need to exercise the power, and giving us some indication as to what they would want - it's a difficult subject to talk about with some people. If the other attorney doesn't really know your dad, then presumably you will be expecting to make the majority of these decisions.

Good luck - the guidance notes on all the forms are pretty good (although lengthy).

[XJSJohn]

Cheers for the advice .... this sounds more complicated that initially thought, although i suppose given that it is to all intents and purposes giving someone total control over anothers life (financially) so it needs to be very thorough.

Interesting idea on the "professional power of attorney", that is something worth looking into perhaps thanks there!

For my father its now the risk that although currently of sound mind, he has the risk of a stroke or similar and should that happen the potential for the state to step in and (mis)manage his finances on his behalf ....

[grumbledoak]

I wouldn't worry too much about an accountant mismanaging the estate; he is likely to act well, and anyway you'd have recourse if he acts unprofessionally.

But do get a solid contract with respect to his fees- there is no authority or court that you can appeal to once he's invoiced.

[XJSJohn]

grumbledoak said:

But do get a solid contract with respect to his fees- there is no authority or court that you can appeal to once he's invoiced.

Good point, he is an old friend as well, but as an accountant as tight as a ducks arse, so yes, better ensure the terms of engagement are equally watertight

[Piglet]

Lots of info here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/ on the new Lasting Power of Attorney.

Setting these LPA's up now is apparently a nightmare and I think is likely to cost you in excess of £600. It will be worthwhile but it's not like the days of Enduring POA where you could produce one yourself!

Good luck with you Dad

[therealpigdog]

Piglet said:

Lots of info here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/ on the new Lasting Power of Attorney.

Setting these LPA's up now is apparently a nightmare and I think is likely to cost you in excess of £600. It will be worthwhile but it's not like the days of Enduring POA where you could produce one yourself!

Good luck with you Dad

I'm doing all the paperwork myself and although I am a lawyer, it's not my area of expertise at all, so I'm probably don't have much of a headstart over anyone else. The guidance that is provided her is really useful, although there is a lot of it, so be prepared for some very boring bedtime reading. Once you get your head round it all, its not impossible to do yourself.

It can be very confusing though, and if you can find a professional willing to do it at a sensible cost, then might be worth the piece of mind. Certainly if I were to look at the time I have spent on this and then multiplied it by my hourly rate then it would have cost an absolute fortune (but as I said I was starting at scratch). I'd think £600 would be good value tbh, and far cheaper than trying to sort something out if you didn't have the LPA in place.

[Piglet]

therealpigdog said:

Piglet said:

Lots of info here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/ on the new Lasting Power of Attorney.

Setting these LPA's up now is apparently a nightmare and I think is likely to cost you in excess of £600. It will be worthwhile but it's not like the days of Enduring POA where you could produce one yourself!

Good luck with you Dad

I'm doing all the paperwork myself and although I am a lawyer, it's not my area of expertise at all, so I'm probably don't have much of a headstart over anyone else. The guidance that is provided her is really useful, although there is a lot of it, so be prepared for some very boring bedtime reading. Once you get your head round it all, its not impossible to do yourself.

It can be very confusing though, and if you can find a professional willing to do it at a sensible cost, then might be worth the piece of mind. Certainly if I were to look at the time I have spent on this and then multiplied it by my hourly rate then it would have cost an absolute fortune (but as I said I was starting at scratch). I'd think £600 would be good value tbh, and far cheaper than trying to sort something out if you didn't have the LPA in place.

I *think* when I looked at it, as a lawyer you can't provide the necessary evidence for your own friend or relative so you still need an independant lawyer/GP etc. who can certify that the person granting the power is in a state to do it etc.

My cousin needed to do one for my uncle (and outside of the fact that arguably he wasn't of sound mind), I wasn't able to deal with it as I was a relative.

I don't recall how much of it was an issue as a family member though....

[Wings]

therealpigdog said:

Piglet said:

Lots of info here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/ on the new Lasting Power of Attorney.

Setting these LPA's up now is apparently a nightmare and I think is likely to cost you in excess of £600. It will be worthwhile but it's not like the days of Enduring POA where you could produce one yourself!

Good luck with you Dad

I'm doing all the paperwork myself and although I am a lawyer, it's not my area of expertise at all, so I'm probably don't have much of a headstart over anyone else. The guidance that is provided her is really useful, although there is a lot of it, so be prepared for some very boring bedtime reading. Once you get your head round it all, its not impossible to do yourself.

It can be very confusing though, and if you can find a professional willing to do it at a sensible cost, then might be worth the piece of mind. Certainly if I were to look at the time I have spent on this and then multiplied it by my hourly rate then it would have cost an absolute fortune (but as I said I was starting at scratch). I'd think £600 would be good value tbh, and far cheaper than trying to sort something out if you didn't have the LPA in place.

Below are the prices I was recently quoted for a pair (2) Powers of Attorney, now, thanks to Piglet, attempting to set up register our own.

Lasting Powers of Attorney
Pair of Property and Affairs LPAs or Health and Welfare LPAs - £600 plus VAT
With Registration £900
With Certificate Provision £900
With Registration and Certificate Provision £1,000
Pair of Property and Affairs LPAs and Health and Welfare LPAs - £1,000
With Registration £1,500
With Certificate Provision £1,500
With Registration and Certificate Provision £1,800

[Piglet]

Wings said:

therealpigdog said:

Piglet said:

Lots of info here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/ on the new Lasting Power of Attorney.

Setting these LPA's up now is apparently a nightmare and I think is likely to cost you in excess of £600. It will be worthwhile but it's not like the days of Enduring POA where you could produce one yourself!

Good luck with you Dad

I'm doing all the paperwork myself and although I am a lawyer, it's not my area of expertise at all, so I'm probably don't have much of a headstart over anyone else. The guidance that is provided her is really useful, although there is a lot of it, so be prepared for some very boring bedtime reading. Once you get your head round it all, its not impossible to do yourself.

It can be very confusing though, and if you can find a professional willing to do it at a sensible cost, then might be worth the piece of mind. Certainly if I were to look at the time I have spent on this and then multiplied it by my hourly rate then it would have cost an absolute fortune (but as I said I was starting at scratch). I'd think £600 would be good value tbh, and far cheaper than trying to sort something out if you didn't have the LPA in place.

Below are the prices I was recently quoted for a pair (2) Powers of Attorney, now, thanks to Piglet, attempting to set up register our own.

Lasting Powers of Attorney
Pair of Property and Affairs LPAs or Health and Welfare LPAs - £600 plus VAT
With Registration £900
With Certificate Provision £900
With Registration and Certificate Provision £1,000
Pair of Property and Affairs LPAs and Health and Welfare LPAs - £1,000
With Registration £1,500
With Certificate Provision £1,500
With Registration and Certificate Provision £1,800

God I'd forgotten how awful it was!

I'm glad we put Dad's EPA in place before the rules changed a couple of years ago.

Wings, I know you're local to me, you may well have a tame lawyer but if need anything certified or anything that you need a lawyer to sign off then give me a shout.

[therealpigdog]

Piglet said:

I *think* when I looked at it, as a lawyer you can't provide the necessary evidence for your own friend or relative so you still need an independant lawyer/GP etc. who can certify that the person granting the power is in a state to do it etc.

Quite right, I won't be certifying anything. My involvement has been to go through the process with the family member to make sure they understand and helped them fill in the form, liaised with the attornies so that they understand the document and their duties and then we will get the family members local solicitor to sign off on everything and certify that the form does indeed match the intentions of the family member. They will still need to explain everything, but hopefully by then a lot of the questions will have already been answered and everyone can progress things that little bit quicker (and therefore cheaper).

Obviously could just get a GP to sign off, but I want to make sure that everyone in the family is happy that the family member concerned knows exactly what is happening.

[Wings]

Piglet, a very kind offer, one that I very much appreciate, and once I have read through the help sheets and completed the forms, I will PM you, thank you.

[Piglet]

therealpigdog said:

Piglet said:

I *think* when I looked at it, as a lawyer you can't provide the necessary evidence for your own friend or relative so you still need an independant lawyer/GP etc. who can certify that the person granting the power is in a state to do it etc.

Quite right, I won't be certifying anything. My involvement has been to go through the process with the family member to make sure they understand and helped them fill in the form, liaised with the attornies so that they understand the document and their duties and then we will get the family members local solicitor to sign off on everything and certify that the form does indeed match the intentions of the family member. They will still need to explain everything, but hopefully by then a lot of the questions will have already been answered and everyone can progress things that little bit quicker (and therefore cheaper).

Obviously could just get a GP to sign off, but I want to make sure that everyone in the family is happy that the family member concerned knows exactly what is happening.

It seems a crazy set up to me. That I couldn't deal with a POA for my uncle the the Power was in favour of my cousin, I could understand not being able to approve a power to yourself but to someone else?

I suspect that the system is proving to be so bleeding expensive and unworkable that we might see another revision to the system to move back to a slightly more sensible position.

[XJSJohn]

Thanks guys, useful information that is scaring the crap out of me!!!

I have one working week in the UK to sort this out and i live 8000 miles away, guess i best get reading this weekend!!!!

Anyone recommend a good lawyer for this sort of thing? North London / Hertfordshire sort of way ideally!!

[XJSJohn]

Piglet said:

Lots of info here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/ on the new Lasting Power of Attorney.

Thanks for the links here, by God they certainly know how to make it complicated don't they!!!

Just spent most of teh morning reading through these and have barely scratched the surface! Takes a hell of a long time too doesn't it!

Hey hum ... dear old England ehh, suspect that a soliciter is going to make some money here, mind you will be cheaper than the time i will burn on it personally!

[Piglet]

XJSJohn said:

Thanks guys, useful information that is scaring the crap out of me!!!

I have one working week in the UK to sort this out and i live 8000 miles away, guess i best get reading this weekend!!!!

Anyone recommend a good lawyer for this sort of thing? North London / Hertfordshire sort of way ideally!!

If you don't get a recommendation (Rich Burley might be a good starting point...) then look at the Law Society website, there is a "find a solicitor" search where you can look by area. Alternatively Age Concern or similar might have some recommendations.

Good luck! I think from memory you need the persons GP on board so you might want to get someone working on that in the meantime.

[XJSJohn]

Piglet said:

XJSJohn said:

Thanks guys, useful information that is scaring the crap out of me!!!

I have one working week in the UK to sort this out and i live 8000 miles away, guess i best get reading this weekend!!!!

Anyone recommend a good lawyer for this sort of thing? North London / Hertfordshire sort of way ideally!!

If you don't get a recommendation (Rich Burley might be a good starting point...) then look at the Law Society website, there is a "find a solicitor" search where you can look by area. Alternatively Age Concern or similar might have some recommendations.

Good luck! I think from memory you need the persons GP on board so you might want to get someone working on that in the meantime.

cheers for the tips .... its dads own request but dont think GP will be an issue, however its another few hours of scarse time in my (origionaly intended to be) holiday!!!