Checking if a company is truly VAT registered?

[3200gt]

Guys & Girls, bit of a problem that I'm hoping the PH massive will be able to point me in the right direction.
I want to find the VAT number of a company to find if it is truly registered. Their invoices do not show a VAT number, which I know is illegal, but their invoices charge VAT. I do not want to ask the company as there is a nice little suprise waiting for them in the next few months, coutesy of the courts, however trading and claiming VAT but not paying it to the revenue would put a nice cherry on top.
Anyone know a site that you can put in the company name and find if they are VAT registered?
Thanks

[TooLateForAName]

Ring the vat people and ask them.

They tend to be interested in people charging vat but not passing it on.


Be aware that they may take priority when it comes to dividing the spoils

[3200gt]

I dont know for sure that they are not passing it on, just speculating. At this stage Im just trying to find out for sure if they are registered or not (without talking to them about it)

[joewilliams]

HMRC said:

If you suspect that a firm is avoiding paying VAT, or charging VAT when they aren't VAT registered, you can report them to HMRC. You don't have to give your name or any personal details.

The Customs Hotline, Tel [phone], open 24 hours, seven days a week.

Edited by joewilliams on Wednesday 10th February 21:22

[3200gt]

Thanks, but I know all that. All Im asking is, is there a site anyone can reccomend/know that if I put in company "xyz" it'll either say "VAT No 123456789" or "this company is not VAT registered"
ps, they are not limited so companies house is no good.

Edited by 3200gt on Wednesday 10th February 21:32

[PetrolTed]

Seems you can check European VAT numbers online, but in the UK you have to use the telephone

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Ta...

[BBYeah]

I don't think it's illegal not to have the VAT number on an invoice. What isn't permitted is not providing a full VAT invoice when requested by another VAT registered company. It is I believe acceptable by default to not provide a full VAT receipt and then provide one on request.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/charging/vat-i...

Edited by BBYeah on Wednesday 10th February 21:42

[3200gt]

PetrolTed said:

Seems you can check European VAT numbers online, but in the UK you have to use the telephone

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Ta...

Typical of this poxy nanny state. So I can't check if they are charging VAT legally or not without alerting the authorities, who will only tell me AFTER they have concluded their investigation and swiped all the cash?

[KelWedge]

You could try ringing the VAT Helpline on 0845 010 9000 I think thats still current. Yes if VAT registered they should have VAT Number on the invoice.

[3200gt]

BBYeah said:

I don't think it's illegal not to have the VAT number on an invoice. What isn't permitted is not providing a full VAT invoice when requested by another VAT registered company. It is I believe acceptable by default to not provide a full VAT receipt and then provide one on request.

I think the only people/companies that are not required to put a VAT No on an invoice are retailers. A VAT registered company has to, by law, have their VAT No on the invoice.

[JustinP1]

3200gt said:

BBYeah said:

I don't think it's illegal not to have the VAT number on an invoice. What isn't permitted is not providing a full VAT invoice when requested by another VAT registered company. It is I believe acceptable by default to not provide a full VAT receipt and then provide one on request.

I think the only people/companies that are not required to put a VAT No on an invoice are retailers. A VAT registered company has to, by law, have their VAT No on the invoice.

Yes, that's right.

If you are charging VAT to another VAT registered business then there is no excuse. Why would you not put your VAT number on an invoice!?

[BBYeah]

What is the definition of a retailer then? If you sell to the public and someone doesn't mention that they are also VAT registered, it must be acceptable not to send them a VAT receipt unless they request one?

[Eric Mc]

BBYeah said:

What is the definition of a retailer then? If you sell to the public and someone doesn't mention that they are also VAT registered, it must be acceptable not to send them a VAT receipt unless they request one?

If you are a VAT registered retailer, you SHOULD show your VAT registration number on invoices and till receipts.

If your annual turnover exceeds £67,000, you are obliged by law to register.

If someone is quoting VAT amounts on their invoices but not showing a VAT registration number, I would be highly suspicious of them. At the very least I would refuse to pay them until they gave me a properly legal VAT invoice.

[3200gt]

If both companies are VAT registered then there is no reason not to show the VAT No, if the seller isn't VAT reg'ed and they are charging VAT, then they are artificially increasing their sale value/margin by the VAT value. Additionally they are incriminating the buyer when the buyer reclaims the VAT value.

[JustinP1]

3200gt said:

If both companies are VAT registered then there is no reason not to show the VAT No, if the seller isn't VAT reg'ed and they are charging VAT, then they are artificially increasing their sale value/margin by the VAT value. Additionally they are incriminating the buyer when the buyer reclaims the VAT value.

Which is why a buyer should not pay the VAT part of the invoice unless the VAT registration number is printed on the invoice so that it can be referenced with HMRC as evidence of registration...

[cheeky_chops]

Eric Mc said:

BBYeah said:

What is the definition of a retailer then? If you sell to the public and someone doesn't mention that they are also VAT registered, it must be acceptable not to send them a VAT receipt unless they request one?

If you are a VAT registered retailer, you SHOULD show your VAT registration number on invoices and till receipts.

If your annual turnover exceeds £67,000, you are obliged by law to register.

If someone is quoting VAT amounts on their invoices but not showing a VAT registration number, I would be highly suspicious of them. At the very least I would refuse to pay them until they gave me a properly legal VAT invoice.

Hmmm, i bought some sellotape from Poundland today - it had a breakdown of VAT but no VAT number on the receipt (didnt notice until i got home)

[3200gt]

cheeky_chops said:

Hmmm, i bought some sellotape from Poundland today

That'll be ste then, take it back and get some proper stuff

Edited by 3200gt on Wednesday 10th February 22:45

[Eric Mc]

cheeky_chops said:

Eric Mc said:

BBYeah said:

What is the definition of a retailer then? If you sell to the public and someone doesn't mention that they are also VAT registered, it must be acceptable not to send them a VAT receipt unless they request one?

If you are a VAT registered retailer, you SHOULD show your VAT registration number on invoices and till receipts.

If your annual turnover exceeds £67,000, you are obliged by law to register.

If someone is quoting VAT amounts on their invoices but not showing a VAT registration number, I would be highly suspicious of them. At the very least I would refuse to pay them until they gave me a properly legal VAT invoice.

Hmmm, i bought some sellotape from Poundland today - it had a breakdown of VAT but no VAT number on the receipt (didnt notice until i got home)

Small value transactions operate under a lighter regime. Even then, most high street retailers DO show their VAT numbers on their till print outs.

Here is what HMRC says -

NORMAL Invoices

What a VAT invoice must show
A VAT invoice must show:

an invoice number which is unique and follows on from the number of the previous invoice - if you spoil or cancel a serially numbered invoice, you must keep it to show to a VAT officer at your next VAT inspection
the seller's name or trading name, and address
the seller's VAT registration number
the invoice date
the time of supply (also known as tax point) if this is different from the invoice date - see below
the customer's name or trading name, and address
a description sufficient to identify the goods or services supplied to the customer
For each different type of item listed on the invoice, you must show:

the unit price or rate, excluding VAT
the quantity of goods or the extent of the services
the rate of VAT that applies to what's being sold
the total amount payable, excluding VAT
the rate of any cash discount
the total amount of VAT charged
If you issue a VAT invoice that includes zero-rated or exempt goods or services, you must:

show clearly that there is no VAT payable on those goods or services
show the total of those values separately
If you make retail sales and you make a sale of goods or services for £250 or less including VAT you can issue a simplified VAT invoice – see the section in this guide on simplified VAT invoices.

SMALL VALUE invoices -

Where simplified or modified VAT invoices can be issued

Simplified VAT invoices
If you make retail sales and you make a sale of goods or services for £250 or less including VAT, then when a customer asks for a VAT invoice, you can issue a simplified VAT invoice that only needs to show:

the seller's name and address
the seller's VAT registration number
the time of supply (tax point)
a description of the goods or services
Also, if the supply includes items at different VAT rates then for each different VAT rate, your simplified VAT invoice must also show:

the total price including VAT
the VAT rate applicable to the item
If you accept credit cards, then you can create a less detailed invoice by adapting the sales voucher you give the cardholder when you make the sale. It must show the information described in the six bullets above

You do need to keep copies of any less detailed invoices you issue.

Based on the abouve, it l;ooks to me like Poundland might be issuing illegal till receipts. If you want to reclaim VAT on any purchases from Poundland, you should insist on receiving a VAT compliant invoice.

[anonymous-user]

Could they be in the process of registering? IIRC when we were we charged VAT and had to put a specific line re:the VAT number on the invoices. I may be remembering this totally wrong though!!!

[donz29]

You can check to see if a VAT number is a genuine VAT number or not by doing the following. (However it won't tell you if it's a genuine number being used by someone fraudulently)

The first seven digits of the VAT registration number are listed vertically.
Each digit is multiplied by a number, starting with 8 and decreasing to 2.
The sum of the multiplications is calculated.
97 is subtracted from the sum as many times as is necessary to arrive at a negative number.
The negative number should be the same as the last 2 digits of the VAT registration number if it is valid.



Example

VAT registration number 339 0727 47

3 *8 = 24
3 *7 = 21
9 *6 = 54
0 *5 = 0
7 *4 = 28
2 *3 = 6
7 *2 = 14

Total = 147

147 - 97 = 50 - 97 = - 47

As the negative number(- 47) is the same as the last two digits of the VAT number, the number is valid.


At least if it fails this test you know it's false!

Edited by donz29 on Thursday 11th February 14:02