Getting our goods back
Discussion
We have a strange issue at the moment...
We sold a product of reasonable value to a customer. He was invoiced, including words to the effect that the goods do not become his until payment is received in full.
This invoice has remained unpaid, and I have since found out the goods have been given in payment to a third party he owed money to. The original guy has also gone to ground and disappeared and will not return any correspondence.
This third party is now unwilling to give us our goods back, despite us having documentation to show ownership. He is trying to sell it to us.
What recourse, if any, do we have in turning up to collect our property?
We sold a product of reasonable value to a customer. He was invoiced, including words to the effect that the goods do not become his until payment is received in full.
This invoice has remained unpaid, and I have since found out the goods have been given in payment to a third party he owed money to. The original guy has also gone to ground and disappeared and will not return any correspondence.
This third party is now unwilling to give us our goods back, despite us having documentation to show ownership. He is trying to sell it to us.
What recourse, if any, do we have in turning up to collect our property?
You are entitled to collect your goods.
There is a rule called Nemo Dat Non Quo Habet (or something like that, it's been a while!) which means that title cannot pass because the "seller" i.e. the person whom passed on your goods, does not have title and thus cannot give it to someone else.
Accordingly, the goods are yours. I would write to the other party and advise them that they have no title to the goods as they remained yours and accordingly you require them to specify a date and time for collection. I'd give them seven days to confirm (and invite them to seek legal advice, and provide a copy of the T&Cs the "seller" had when you sent the goods to him) and note that in the absence of such confirmation you will be forced to take legal action to recover the same and will seek full costs.
There is a rule called Nemo Dat Non Quo Habet (or something like that, it's been a while!) which means that title cannot pass because the "seller" i.e. the person whom passed on your goods, does not have title and thus cannot give it to someone else.
Accordingly, the goods are yours. I would write to the other party and advise them that they have no title to the goods as they remained yours and accordingly you require them to specify a date and time for collection. I'd give them seven days to confirm (and invite them to seek legal advice, and provide a copy of the T&Cs the "seller" had when you sent the goods to him) and note that in the absence of such confirmation you will be forced to take legal action to recover the same and will seek full costs.
Jasandjules said:
You are entitled to collect your goods.
There is a rule called Nemo Dat Non Quo Habet (or something like that, it's been a while!) which means that title cannot pass because the "seller" i.e. the person whom passed on your goods, does not have title and thus cannot give it to someone else.
Accordingly, the goods are yours. I would write to the other party and advise them that they have no title to the goods as they remained yours and accordingly you require them to specify a date and time for collection. I'd give them seven days to confirm (and invite them to seek legal advice, and provide a copy of the T&Cs the "seller" had when you sent the goods to him) and note that in the absence of such confirmation you will be forced to take legal action to recover the same and will seek full costs.
Thank you- that is what I have told him. He isn't playing ball and is trying to suggest we pay him (50%!) of the invoice value to get the goods back. There is a rule called Nemo Dat Non Quo Habet (or something like that, it's been a while!) which means that title cannot pass because the "seller" i.e. the person whom passed on your goods, does not have title and thus cannot give it to someone else.
Accordingly, the goods are yours. I would write to the other party and advise them that they have no title to the goods as they remained yours and accordingly you require them to specify a date and time for collection. I'd give them seven days to confirm (and invite them to seek legal advice, and provide a copy of the T&Cs the "seller" had when you sent the goods to him) and note that in the absence of such confirmation you will be forced to take legal action to recover the same and will seek full costs.
If he sells the goods to a further 3rd party, is he committing an offence?
As far as I'm aware the goods are your property until money changes hands and this can be in two ways:
Your client pays you - you no longer own the goods
His client pays him, they now own the goods and you have to chase your client.
If either case has not happened, you are legally still the owner and you can ask for them back. The problem is actually gaining access to them! If the client's client refuses you entry for example there's bugger all you can do. The BIB won't be interested and you may be in for a long fight.
I have been in a similar situation previously and was able to contact my client's client directly and I offered them a lower price than they were about to pay and got my money in full. My client then rang me getting very abusive at which point I calmly told him to f
k off as he lost his rights when he bounced two cheques on me 
I would play hard ball with the end client quoting law etc and try to frighten him if you don't get anywhere.
jamesUK28 is a top man on PH and will be able to offer good advice and chase the debt if needbe
Your client pays you - you no longer own the goods
His client pays him, they now own the goods and you have to chase your client.
If either case has not happened, you are legally still the owner and you can ask for them back. The problem is actually gaining access to them! If the client's client refuses you entry for example there's bugger all you can do. The BIB won't be interested and you may be in for a long fight.
I have been in a similar situation previously and was able to contact my client's client directly and I offered them a lower price than they were about to pay and got my money in full. My client then rang me getting very abusive at which point I calmly told him to f
k off as he lost his rights when he bounced two cheques on me I would play hard ball with the end client quoting law etc and try to frighten him if you don't get anywhere.
jamesUK28 is a top man on PH and will be able to offer good advice and chase the debt if needbe
With regards to the paperwork- we issued an invoice stating no title until paid in full (no payment at all has been made).
The guy then 'lost' equivalent goods belonging to an unrelated third party, and used our goods to settle that debt. I don't believe there is any secondary invoice 'selling' our goods to the third party.
The guy then 'lost' equivalent goods belonging to an unrelated third party, and used our goods to settle that debt. I don't believe there is any secondary invoice 'selling' our goods to the third party.
10 Pence Short said:
Thank you- that is what I have told him. He isn't playing ball and is trying to suggest we pay him (50%!) of the invoice value to get the goods back.
If he sells the goods to a further 3rd party, is he committing an offence?
Then I would tell him to take legal advice because you can now get the goods back. In fact, I'd inform the police and ask them to attend his property, then pop over with a van and go and collect them. And I'd inform the police full stop right now because I imagine he will try to get shot of the goods as quickly as possible.... You could seek an injunction preventing from moving the goods - that is quite an expensive process though so it depends on the value of the goods etc. BUT if you got an injunction he'd be off to jail if he then sold the goods... If he sells the goods to a further 3rd party, is he committing an offence?
An offence is possible yes, now that he has been told that he does not own the goods and has no title, it could IIRC be theft and certainly handling stolen goods or even fraud (There was only I think 1 class on this in Crim law and I didn't pay much attention I am afraid). Did you record the call? Or make a telephone record? If not, make one now (or if it was in writing then all the better).
10 Pence Short said:
With regards to the paperwork- we issued an invoice stating no title until paid in full (no payment at all has been made).
You need to show that your T&Cs incorporating the retention of title clause were seen by him BEFORE the order was placed and accepted by you - it's too late if the first time he sees them is on your invoice sent after the goods have been shipped. (It may be that where you say "invoice" you mean some other form of contractual documentation - but I thought I'd flag the point just in case).
If the third party won't play ball, and you aren't prepared to do a deal to get them back, it looks like you'd have to go down the route of an action for delivery up.
If he sells them in the meantime, he would have to account to you for their value - which is only any practical use if he's got any money by the time you get a judgment against him....
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