IR35 & Blackberries
Discussion
Thanks for the replies - seems like a potential soloution.
However, the answer does make me wonder about the laptop that they are giving to all staff (as part of a phased rollout), that replaces the traditional desktop pc's. Would that compromise my "non-employee" status? I'm in the pilot scheme as I work at multiple sites (including abroad from time to time) as well as at home.
However, the answer does make me wonder about the laptop that they are giving to all staff (as part of a phased rollout), that replaces the traditional desktop pc's. Would that compromise my "non-employee" status? I'm in the pilot scheme as I work at multiple sites (including abroad from time to time) as well as at home.
pincher said:
Thanks for the replies - seems like a potential soloution.
However, the answer does make me wonder about the laptop that they are giving to all staff (as part of a phased rollout), that replaces the traditional desktop pc's. Would that compromise my "non-employee" status? I'm in the pilot scheme as I work at multiple sites (including abroad from time to time) as well as at home.
The mere mention of the phrase" all employees" is dynamite to those doing their best to avoid IR35.However, the answer does make me wonder about the laptop that they are giving to all staff (as part of a phased rollout), that replaces the traditional desktop pc's. Would that compromise my "non-employee" status? I'm in the pilot scheme as I work at multiple sites (including abroad from time to time) as well as at home.
Well, when I say everyone, I don't actually mean absolutely everyone! 
More the people in my division - and our dept. were the pilot rollout.
And in any case, they are only giving the laptops out to replace existing the (ageing) desktop pc's that were in situ and also because there aren't enough desks to go round, so we are expected to 'hot-desk' between departments, floors and even buildings!
Obviously, I also have my own 'Ltd Co' laptop
More the people in my division - and our dept. were the pilot rollout.
And in any case, they are only giving the laptops out to replace existing the (ageing) desktop pc's that were in situ and also because there aren't enough desks to go round, so we are expected to 'hot-desk' between departments, floors and even buildings!
Obviously, I also have my own 'Ltd Co' laptop
Your client wouldn't happen to be an "asian based local bank" would it? If so, I'm in the same boat regarding the laptop roll out. My understanding (to be confirmed) is that the laptops will remain on site you're not expected to take them home with you. To that end I'm planning on treating it exactly the same as the desktop PC that they provide me to use; ie. I use my own laptop when I can but have to use their PC to access business specific data on their network since they won't allow my laptop to connect to their network.
pincher said:
Well, when I say everyone, I don't actually mean absolutely everyone!
More the people in my division - and our dept. were the pilot rollout.
And in any case, they are only giving the laptops out to replace existing the (ageing) desktop pc's that were in situ and also because there aren't enough desks to go round, so we are expected to 'hot-desk' between departments, floors and even buildings!
Obviously, I also have my own 'Ltd Co' laptop
If you are being offered the same facilities as genuine employees. you are severely compromising your claim that you should not be considered as just another employee.More the people in my division - and our dept. were the pilot rollout.
And in any case, they are only giving the laptops out to replace existing the (ageing) desktop pc's that were in situ and also because there aren't enough desks to go round, so we are expected to 'hot-desk' between departments, floors and even buildings!
Obviously, I also have my own 'Ltd Co' laptop
I would reject any such offers and give back any laptops or other equipment which has been gioven to you by the people for whom you are working.
Seriously.
Hmmmm, interesting.
Eric (and this is a genuine question - not being pedantic) - how is the fact that we use bank laptops, with docking stations, any different to sitting at a desk and using the associated desktop pc in order to connect to the bank Network?
As stated above, there isn't an expectation for them to be taken home every night.
And I 'can' use my own laptop, or my home-office located Mac to connect remotely, should I need to.
Eric (and this is a genuine question - not being pedantic) - how is the fact that we use bank laptops, with docking stations, any different to sitting at a desk and using the associated desktop pc in order to connect to the bank Network?
As stated above, there isn't an expectation for them to be taken home every night.
And I 'can' use my own laptop, or my home-office located Mac to connect remotely, should I need to.
That's the bit I don't really understand - Eric quite obviously knows what he is talking about and I can understand the POV regarding Blackberries but if they are withdrawing one form of technology and replacing it with a portable solution, for the reasons I stated above then I don't really see that there is much I can do about it?
mattdaniels said:
Your client wouldn't happen to be an "asian based local bank" would it?
I contract for the same bank in CW. I take my company laptop every day but I'm not allowed to connect to the LAN - Although for remote access, it's fine. Would a letter from the client stating that , for security reasons, I cannot connect my company laptop to the LAN be useful/helpful?The same scenario w.r.t. to connectivity of non-bank assets to the LAN applied when I previously contracted for an antipodean bank.
Edited by djmotorsport on Sunday 28th March 22:22
"Use of own tools" is one of the key factors cited by HMRC when assessing whether a person is genuinely "trading on their own account".
Wherever possible, anyone operating through their own limiyed company should do their best to adhere to this principle. If this is impossible (for the reasons mentioned above), then the contract between the contracting company and the entity for which it is doing the work should clearly state that the reason the equipment is being supplied to the contractor is solely for business security or technical purposes.
As always with IR35, both the contract between the two parties and the actual practical day to day way in which they interelate will be reviewed by HMRC to see if an "employee/employer" type relationship exists.
Any practice in place which hints that such a relationship exists will be used by HMRC to argue their assertions.
Wherever possible, anyone operating through their own limiyed company should do their best to adhere to this principle. If this is impossible (for the reasons mentioned above), then the contract between the contracting company and the entity for which it is doing the work should clearly state that the reason the equipment is being supplied to the contractor is solely for business security or technical purposes.
As always with IR35, both the contract between the two parties and the actual practical day to day way in which they interelate will be reviewed by HMRC to see if an "employee/employer" type relationship exists.
Any practice in place which hints that such a relationship exists will be used by HMRC to argue their assertions.
Eric Mc said:
"Use of own tools" is one of the key factors cited by HMRC when assessing whether a person is genuinely "trading on their own account".
Not wishing to question Eric on his own turf, but at least in IT it is almost universal that all personnel - permanent, contractor, consultant etc. - must use customer-supplied equipment, and that connecting your own to their network will result in instant escorting off-site. Therefore the provision or otherwise of a laptop is generally a neutral factor, and I don't believe has been of any substantial impact in any of the IR35 cases brought to the commissioners so far. The issues of direction & control, mutuality of obligation, and right of substitution are the key factors that IT contractors need to be aware of.I would however suggest that issuing a Blackberry would be a heavy pointer towards D&C, as it implies that you are required to be available when you are offsite and presumably not billing. I'd resist it strongly, or at the very least make a point of leaving it at work (and tell the client that's what you're doing).
I take your point on the use of a laptop. In many ways, HMRC have to go with what is "the norm" in certain industries, especially if "the norm" had been firmly established before IR35 came in.
However, with newer technology which dates from post 1998/99 (like Blackberries), I would expect that HMRC would be more inclined to use that as a weapon in their quest for the implimentation of IR35.
As always, it's the bigger picture that will say one way or another whether IR35 applies.
However, with newer technology which dates from post 1998/99 (like Blackberries), I would expect that HMRC would be more inclined to use that as a weapon in their quest for the implimentation of IR35.
As always, it's the bigger picture that will say one way or another whether IR35 applies.
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 29th March 16:17
pincher said:
mattdaniels said:
djmotorsport said:
I contract for the same bank in CW.
Pistonheads mini-meet on 15th floor? 
Edited by mattdaniels on Monday 29th March 21:05
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