Question for any hosting providers here (email)
Discussion
I have several domains with a UK host and use email addresses from those domains too. Ever since I started with them I get periodic bounce backs and even had cases where contacts sending to me would be bounced back too. Recently the problem has been getting worse. This is pretty standard, generated by the host's mailer daemon :
-=-=-=-=-=-
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
xxx@xxx
host mx.lb.btinternet.com [213.120.69.2]
SMTP error from remote mail server after pipelined MAIL FROM:<xxx> SIZE=14573:
522-email sent from xxx.xx.xxx.xxx found on industry IP blacklists (Spamhaus/Invaluement/ReturnPath) on 2021/04/30 17:56:59 BST.
522 To protect our customers, we use leading industry providers of blacklists to ensure only good senders can send email to us. If believe this is a mistake, please contact them directly as there is nothing our Postmaster will be able to do.
-=-=-=-=-=-
The host is very apologetic but says nothing they can do as it's nothing to do with them and my IP is getting added to Spamhaus and they've found it on 3 other lists as well. They can request manual removal but that's about it. This is an EE dynamic IP.
I should point out here that sending to these same recipients from my gmail address never results in any bounce backs, nor does anyone sending to it get any either. But I don't want to use gmail and I use my own domains for that reason, however it's proving to be more hassle than it's worth. My email content is mainly hobby stuff which is about as uninteresting as it gets for the average person and certainly the content is in no way spammy.
I am finding it hard to believe that the problem is my IP when I have no issues with gmail. I only get these bounce backs when using their domain servers which leads me to believe that the problem lay with them even though they argue to the contrary. This has been going on for so long that both parties are sick of it and they've said they'll refund all my services, essentially suggesting that I f
k off and use someone else. I would do that but I really can't be arsed with the monumental hassle of moving a whole bunch of domains and emails to another provider who could be just as bad as where I am now. In short, I just want them to fix their st and provide the service for which I'm paying for. Am I being unreasonable here and am interested to hear thoughts from those clued up on such matters on whether I'm being spun a yarn or not?
-=-=-=-=-=-
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
xxx@xxx
host mx.lb.btinternet.com [213.120.69.2]
SMTP error from remote mail server after pipelined MAIL FROM:<xxx> SIZE=14573:
522-email sent from xxx.xx.xxx.xxx found on industry IP blacklists (Spamhaus/Invaluement/ReturnPath) on 2021/04/30 17:56:59 BST.
522 To protect our customers, we use leading industry providers of blacklists to ensure only good senders can send email to us. If believe this is a mistake, please contact them directly as there is nothing our Postmaster will be able to do.
-=-=-=-=-=-
The host is very apologetic but says nothing they can do as it's nothing to do with them and my IP is getting added to Spamhaus and they've found it on 3 other lists as well. They can request manual removal but that's about it. This is an EE dynamic IP.
I should point out here that sending to these same recipients from my gmail address never results in any bounce backs, nor does anyone sending to it get any either. But I don't want to use gmail and I use my own domains for that reason, however it's proving to be more hassle than it's worth. My email content is mainly hobby stuff which is about as uninteresting as it gets for the average person and certainly the content is in no way spammy.
I am finding it hard to believe that the problem is my IP when I have no issues with gmail. I only get these bounce backs when using their domain servers which leads me to believe that the problem lay with them even though they argue to the contrary. This has been going on for so long that both parties are sick of it and they've said they'll refund all my services, essentially suggesting that I f
k off and use someone else. I would do that but I really can't be arsed with the monumental hassle of moving a whole bunch of domains and emails to another provider who could be just as bad as where I am now. In short, I just want them to fix their st and provide the service for which I'm paying for. Am I being unreasonable here and am interested to hear thoughts from those clued up on such matters on whether I'm being spun a yarn or not?bhstewie said:
hstewie said: EE dynamic IP addresses aren't intended to be used for sending SMTP (email) traffic which is why they (and most other dynamic IP addresses) tend to be on lists like Spamhaus.
How is your email client configured to send mail?
I use emclient and only access it on my PC so it's old skool POP/SMTP. Have used IMAP in the past but my current set-up has no need for it. But why should that make any difference when I use my gmail address through the same client and has no issues?How is your email client configured to send mail?
PH4555 said:
I use emclient and only access it on my PC so it's old skool POP/SMTP. Have used IMAP in the past but my current set-up has no need for it. But why should that make any difference when I use my gmail address through the same client and has no issues?
So in your mail client in SMTP settings you have it set to send via your hosts SMTP servers?And in your original post the IP you redacted is your random dynamic EE IP address?
Yes and yes,
The host is saying back in 2019 their own spam filter was blocking my content (which, having forwarded the email content to them for inspection on what may have caused the triggers, they have confirmed that there is nothing untoward in them and are clueless as to what triggered them). They removed me from their own spam filter block lists, gave me a dedicated IP shared with no-one else and on we went.
A short while later my emails were getting blocked again, but this time by Spamhaus which they say is out of their control. They request a delist which happens, only for me to get re-added again a short time later. More delists happen and then round and round we go. The host says that Spamhaus is used by gmail, yahoo and other big names, yet if I send the exact same email with headers, subject and content to the same recipients it gets to the recipients 100% of the time without any bounces or blocks. When I put this to the host to explain this, they can't. To my mind they have an issue with their servers which are already borderline with Spamhaus for some reason, hence why perfectly innocent and legitimate emails keep getting blocked. If not then how do you explain no issues with gmail?
The host is now at the point of offering to pay me a not insignificant sum to fk off, including a refund of all my years of hosting with them. The issue I have with this is that I am lead to believe all hosting providers route through the same spam companies so by moving to another host I'm very likely to suffer the exact same issues with them. In short, a whole load of hassle moving/migrating everything for no gain other than my current host don't have to deal with this crap any longer. They have said that Spamhaus can't be contacted to discuss the matter and you can only submit delist requests and read their useless FAQs, so there's nothing else they can do. I find this all rather ridiculous.
The host is saying back in 2019 their own spam filter was blocking my content (which, having forwarded the email content to them for inspection on what may have caused the triggers, they have confirmed that there is nothing untoward in them and are clueless as to what triggered them). They removed me from their own spam filter block lists, gave me a dedicated IP shared with no-one else and on we went.
A short while later my emails were getting blocked again, but this time by Spamhaus which they say is out of their control. They request a delist which happens, only for me to get re-added again a short time later. More delists happen and then round and round we go. The host says that Spamhaus is used by gmail, yahoo and other big names, yet if I send the exact same email with headers, subject and content to the same recipients it gets to the recipients 100% of the time without any bounces or blocks. When I put this to the host to explain this, they can't. To my mind they have an issue with their servers which are already borderline with Spamhaus for some reason, hence why perfectly innocent and legitimate emails keep getting blocked. If not then how do you explain no issues with gmail?
The host is now at the point of offering to pay me a not insignificant sum to f
k off, including a refund of all my years of hosting with them. The issue I have with this is that I am lead to believe all hosting providers route through the same spam companies so by moving to another host I'm very likely to suffer the exact same issues with them. In short, a whole load of hassle moving/migrating everything for no gain other than my current host don't have to deal with this crap any longer. They have said that Spamhaus can't be contacted to discuss the matter and you can only submit delist requests and read their useless FAQs, so there's nothing else they can do. I find this all rather ridiculous.Edited by PH4555 on Saturday 1st May 08:00
Gmail have a good enough reputation (and sheer size and scale) that you won't find many places reject mail from them.
From how you've explained it what's happening is this.
Do you have SPF records in place for your domains?
From how you've explained it what's happening is this.
- Your email client is set to use mail.yourhost as your SMTP server so any mail you send goes out through them.
- They deliver it and some gets rejected
- received by BT internet from mail.yourhost
- received by mail.yourhost from your.dynamic.ee.address
Do you have SPF records in place for your domains?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Gmail have a good enough reputation (and sheer size and scale) that you won't find many places reject mail from them.
From how you've explained it what's happening is this.
Do you have SPF records in place for your domains?
No idea what SPF records are.From how you've explained it what's happening is this.
- Your email client is set to use mail.yourhost as your SMTP server so any mail you send goes out through them.
- They deliver it and some gets rejected
- received by BT internet from mail.yourhost
- received by mail.yourhost from your.dynamic.ee.address
Do you have SPF records in place for your domains?
I think you have it the wrong way round. It's the host's IP that is blacklisted, not my home IP. They are saying it's my email content that is blocking it but can't explain what in my emails is triggering it.
He's done a screenshot of their server mail logs and it shows for example (this was a temp hold before it eventually went through) :
"SMTP error from remote mail server after pipelined MAIL FROM: [my email address] SIZE=blah 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from [host IP] temporarily deferred due to unexpected volume or user complaints - 4.16.55.1 see https://postmaster.verizonmedia.com/error-codes&qu...
My email has sent 157 emails since the start of April to a small handful of addresses, most of them hobby related (aviation).
This stuff can be a dark art and you couldn't pay me to run a hosting company and trying to ensure my customers aren't doing anything that someone else is reporting as spam.
Do you have the hosts mail server IP address?
If you don't want to post it go here and put it in and see what comes back
https://mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx
Do you have the hosts mail server IP address?
If you don't want to post it go here and put it in and see what comes back
https://mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Do you have SPF records in place for your domains?
That is the very reason I asked if it was 123-reg.co.uk, because I've been having the same issue as the OP (or very similar) in that either emails would get returned saying they had been queued for 24 hours and the mail server had given up, or emails taking a few hours before the recipient received them. I've also had the issue whereby my bank sends me a letter once a month saying they have had a problem sending me my statement by email.
Anyway, it seems to affect certain emails (mainly btinternet and hotmail, at least for me, sending to that is).
But, I added an SPF record to my domain a few days ago and so far I've not had any more bounces.
This is how you do it in 123-reg's setup, but their article tells you about SPF records and how to generate one:
https://www.123-reg.co.uk/support/domains/how-do-i...
&
https://www.spfwizard.net/
See if your host allows you to add said SPF.
Edited by snuffy on Saturday 1st May 08:38
SPF wouldn't impact people sending to you though.
It's essential to have one these days and depending on your hosting package and who manages your DNS it might not be the job of your hosting provider to put it in place for you.
If you want email that "just works" and you're not technical enough to sort these things out there's a very strong argument for just getting an Office 365 or G Suite account and letting them sort most of it for you.
It's essential to have one these days and depending on your hosting package and who manages your DNS it might not be the job of your hosting provider to put it in place for you.
If you want email that "just works" and you're not technical enough to sort these things out there's a very strong argument for just getting an Office 365 or G Suite account and letting them sort most of it for you.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: SPF wouldn't impact people sending to you though.
It's essential to have one these days and depending on your hosting package and who manages your DNS it might not be the job of your hosting provider to put it in place for you.
If you want email that "just works" and you're not technical enough to sort these things out there's a very strong argument for just getting an Office 365 or G Suite account and letting them sort most of it for you.
The only problem I know of with people sending is my bank, and I will not know if adding an SPF has made any difference until I either get a letter or email from them (oddly, they can send me emails on other matters just fine, but not my statements, according the them). So it could just be a separate issue.It's essential to have one these days and depending on your hosting package and who manages your DNS it might not be the job of your hosting provider to put it in place for you.
If you want email that "just works" and you're not technical enough to sort these things out there's a very strong argument for just getting an Office 365 or G Suite account and letting them sort most of it for you.
But, I've tested it by sending a mate an email to his two addresses (one BT and one other) and the BT one would either bounce or be delayed, but the other would arrive instantly. Now he says they both arrive at the same time, instantly. So it's changed something.
snuffy said:
The only problem I know of with people sending is my bank, and I will not know if adding an SPF has made any difference until I either get a letter or email from them (oddly, they can send me emails on other matters just fine, but not my statements, according the them). So it could just be a separate issue.
But, I've tested it by sending a mate an email to his two addresses (one BT and one other) and the BT one would either bounce or be delayed, but the other would arrive instantly. Now he says they both arrive at the same time, instantly. So it's changed something.
SPF literally only applies when you're sending from a domain as it "proves" the sending mail server is allowed to send from @yourdomain so it won't have any impact with your bank (or anyone else) sending to you - that will be down to something else.But, I've tested it by sending a mate an email to his two addresses (one BT and one other) and the BT one would either bounce or be delayed, but the other would arrive instantly. Now he says they both arrive at the same time, instantly. So it's changed something.
It makes sense that you sending to someone with and without a record would make a difference as different mail servers (and how they're configured) can do a ton of different things depending on a combination of different factors.
I can see it's frustrating for people because on the surface email seems really simple but underneath there's a ton of things that mean the tenner a year or whatever you're paying your host means it doesn't take long before they're spending more on supporting you (not you personally) as a customer than you're paying them.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: This stuff can be a dark art and you couldn't pay me to run a hosting company and trying to ensure my customers aren't doing anything that someone else is reporting as spam.
Do you have the hosts mail server IP address?
If you don't want to post it go here and put it in and see what comes back
https://mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx
The host's IP is clear there, but he says he monitors it anyway and if it does get blacklisted he sends a delist request, so I'm assuming that's why it currently shows clear.Do you have the hosts mail server IP address?
If you don't want to post it go here and put it in and see what comes back
https://mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx
However he has said the likely reasons why his server IP is getting blacklisted is because my EE address is on 3 blacklists. I have just checked it myself and although I can't view the detail without creating an account, it's showing me on CBL, RATS NoPtr and Spamhaus ZEN. This is a dynamic address but the router never gets switched off unless there's a connection issue so I've probably had this IP for a few months.
My domain name made me wonder if it could be the cause as it is 3 initials of my name followed by mail.com, eg. phzmail.com, so could be being picked up by spam algorithms but the host has said he's run a reputation check on it and it's come back all clear. He is out of ideas and says to take up the issue with EE (which will be a waste of time, of course).
In response to using google, microsoft etc, I was a long time user of gmail (and hotmail and yahoo before that) but I would rather not be their product and keep my email content (relatively) private so would prefer not to revert back.
buggalugs said:
The reason his vps's IP keeps getting blacklisted is because he'll have half a dozen hacked wordpress sites on it pumping spam out 24/7, it's nothing to do with your home IP.
I'm the only person on it this IP. When all this started it was a shared server, but to isolate the problem (which quickly became clear it was me after complaining that my emails were being blocked) he moved me to a dedicated server.Gassing Station | Computers, Gadgets & Stuff | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff