Another back up question........

[flyingjase]

Didn't want to hi-jack White Van Man's thread with a slightly different back up question:-

I run a small business with about 90GB of data on a server. Data is the life blood of our business and if we were to lose this data there would be significant ramifications to our business. On that basis I took a contract with ImperaData who in turn subcontract the back up to a US based company called LiveVault (not that they told me this when I took the contract out!).

The theory goes that ImperaData constantly monitor my server for changes to folders / files and immediately back up those that have been changed. 3 weeks ago I had reason to try and restore a backed up file, but it hadn't been backed up!!!! Apparently there was 'significant back up latency' due to a large amount of data being changed on my server (they claim 30gb on 4/12/05) and as our upstream broadband bandwith is only 256mb it is taking 2 weeks for the back up to 'catch up' with the changes on the server.

1. I don't believe that we changed 30gb of data in one day and when I asked Imperedata for proof (ie tell me what data they had backed up) they told me that LiveVault keep that information confidential for my own protection! Therefore they're unable to give me any details (yeah right!)

2. When they sold me this back up product they never once mentioned that there maybe an issue with bandwidth. I'm a non-techie and until now I didn’t even release that it doesn’t matter what your downstream bandwidth is, the upstream is limited to 256mb.

HELP!!! Does anyone have an offsite back up service that they can suggest that will work within this bandwidth?

I've previously tried tapes but remembering to take them offsite is a nightmare.

Any advice would be gratefully received

[agent006]

flyingjase said:

HELP!!! Does anyone have an offsite back up service that they can suggest that will work within this bandwidth?

SDLT tape drive, and take the tapes home with you?

[aldi]

Standard practice is, tape drive and take the latest tape home with you (or get employee of the month to pop it in their purse). Do a test restore every month or two. 90GB will need better than bog standard but is very much standard and do-able. I restored someone's server after 2 drives in a raid 5 failed from a HP ultrium a few months ago, wich ISTR was 250GB. It worked! The tapes for it are expensive but how much is your data worth?

[roadsweeper]

Hi Jason

My company offers an off-site backup service that works for full and incremental (i.e. only backing-up changes) backups.

You can see more information here:
www.cantarus.co.uk/backup.htm
www.cantarus.co.uk/datahorizon.htm

We run the backup directly (there is no sub-contractor) and our servers are located in ex-NATO nuclear bunkers so are extremely secure.

Having said the above, it may be that any remote backup solution is not suitable for you, depending on how much data changes daily. 90GB is a fair amount of data but the concern really is in the daily differential. I am astonished that LiveVault have claimed 30GB of data changes in one day - this is highly unlikely in my opinion.

Having looked at LiveVault's website they use Continuous Data Protection technology, probably very similar to Veritas' (now owned by Symantec) Continuous Protection Server, more information on which can be found here:
www.veritas.com/solutioncenter/www?cmd=sc&page=cat&cat=cat_4&type=g_&siteName=vena

You can see a nice movie demo of this kind of continuous protection in action by clicking 'Volume Replicator Feature Demo' under 'Demos' on this link which should help you understand how it all works:
www.veritas.com/Products/www?c=collateral&refId=3&type=utilities#utilities

Hopefully you can see how if the connection speed between the two systems isn't fast enough then the backup server will fall further and further behind your server. This can be a problem because a computer can write to a hard disk hundreds or even thousands of times faster than a 256Kb/s Internet connection can replicate.

My initial suspicion is that your entire server, by which I mean your Operating System and installed programs, is being protected rather than just your data. If so, this would involve many more changes over the course of a day and hence much more data to be replicated.

It's possible that a combination of tape drives only or tape drives and remote data backup of your actual data only is the way to go, but I'd need to speak to you and possibly take a look at your infrastructure to be sure.

I'll email this information to you with my contact number, or feel free to contact me through www.cantarus.co.uk. I'm happy to just give advice. Please don't feel that you'll be getting a sales pitch for our backup service - if I don't think remote backup over the Internet is suitable for you I'll tell you.

I hope the above helps.

Lee.

[mattley]

agent006 said:

flyingjase said: HELP!!! Does anyone have an offsite back up service that they can suggest that will work within this bandwidth? SDLT tape drive, and take the tapes home with you?

Or AIT, OR HP ultrium, do it yourself, and test it. No other way.

flyingjase said:

I've previously tried tapes but remembering to take them offsite is a nightmare.

I'm sorry but that is the pissed poorest excuse for data loss I've ever heard. (and I 've heard it alot)

are you running a database, or mail store? they could be huge and even though you've only added a couple of bytes, the whole file will need backing up.

Regardless of the percived convinience, of incremental backup, the restore times are unpredictable at best. Even if it's all on site. Have you got any idea how long 90 Gig might take to restore over DSL should you need it? Your customers will have gone elsewhere long before you've got your data back.

I'm gonna get shouty and sweary , if you have 90Gig of business critical data, you back it up onto tape and you take it off site. And you build a cheap beige box with a another tape drive in it and you test that back up.

Assuming you're running Windows server MS will let you install the OS on a backup machine without buying another licence. so a spare machine will cost you about £1500 with an AIT drive in it. and about another 500 on media, and you take the tapes off site.


If your business data isn't actually worth £2000 plus 20 minutes a day to change the tapes then I hope these off site guys are really really cheap, and you can afford the downtime should it come to it. (I really hope you never need to use this advice).

[plasticpig]

Ok since people are pushing their companies:

My company also provides online backup solutions. Were a reseller. What we do is provide a local machine as a backup server and file cache. Everything on the backup server is also backed up over the internet. One of the first things we do before quoting you is to run data monitoring tools to check how much space you actually require and how many changes there are to files and what bandwidth is required to effectively backup your data; we like to run this simulation for at least a week.

Only the changes to files get transferred over the Internet to update the files already stored thus minimising bandwidth.

Contact me through my profile if you are interested (I am not sure what Teds rules are on commercial posting?)

[marki]

A thread i started a while back

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=238811


Just remembered i have aAIT tape drive to include with it

[plasticpig]

mattley said:

are you running a database, or mail store? they could be huge and even though you've only added a couple of bytes, the whole file will need backing up.

Not with the online backup solution I sell

mattley said:

Regardless of the percived convinience, of incremental backup, the restore times are unpredictable at best. Even if it's all on site. Have you got any idea how long 90 Gig might take to restore over DSL should you need it? Your customers will have gone elsewhere long before you've got your data back

I can get a complete copy of 90GB data including all OS file ready for bare metal restore within 24 hours.

mattley said:

I'm gonna get shouty and sweary , if you have 90Gig of business critical data, you back it up onto tape and you take it off site. And you build a cheap beige box with a another tape drive in it and you test that back up

A survey by Yankee group and Sunbelt software in April 2004 showed that 42% of respondents had experienced a failed tape restore in the previous 12 months.
Thats a very good argument for using online backup

mattley said:

If your business data isn't actually worth £2000 plus 20 minutes a day to change the tapes then I hope these off site guys are really really cheap, and you can afford the downtime should it come to it. (I really hope you never need to use this advice)

If your business data is that vital you should ensure it is backed up and replicated more than once. If one days business data is vital tape backup is not a workable solution. Offsite replication is the only solution as at least one company I have spoken to recently discovered when the oil storage depot blew up.





>> Edited by plasticpig on Thursday 2nd February 12:41

[puggit]

Can I plug as well?

I work for a software company that sells enterprise backup software, as well as CDP and email archiving (and it's not EMC or Symantec!)

Any of you guys who are running the companies above (such as plasticpig) who want to get in touch with me feel free - I'm sure "mate's rates" can be arranged


Personally I'm not a great fan of online backups, I much prefer disk-to-disk-to-tape

[flyingjase]

mattley said:

[quote=flyingjase] I've previously tried tapes but remembering to take them offsite is a nightmare.[/quote=flyingjase] I'm sorry but that is the pissed poorest excuse for data loss I've ever heard. (and I 've heard it alot) are you running a database, or mail store? they could be huge and even though you've only added a couple of bytes, the whole file will need backing up. Regardless of the percived convinience, of incremental backup, the restore times are unpredictable at best. Even if it's all on site. Have you got any idea how long 90 Gig might take to restore over DSL should you need it? Your customers will have gone elsewhere long before you've got your data back. I'm gonna get shouty and sweary , if you have 90Gig of business critical data, you back it up onto tape and you take it off site. And you build a cheap beige box with a another tape drive in it and you test that back up. Assuming you're running Windows server MS will let you install the OS on a backup machine without buying another licence. so a spare machine will cost you about £1500 with an AIT drive in it. and about another 500 on media, and you take the tapes off site. If your business data isn't actually worth £2000 plus 20 minutes a day to change the tapes then I hope these off site guys are really really cheap, and you can afford the downtime should it come to it. (I really hope you never need to use this advice).

It maybe a poor excuse, but there's always the element of forgetting to take the tape offsite. Also, once it's offsite it's very insecure and my entire company records could fall into the wrong hands. That's why I'm resisting this method.

To answer your question, the server hosts MS Small Business Server (including email) and a CRM database

[flyingjase]

Interested in talking to you guys that have offered some solutions & will email you offline - thanks for the great response

[roadsweeper]

plasticpig said:

Ok since people are pushing their companies:

Is this comment aimed at me? If so, I apologise if I appeared to be, 'pushing my company', I was in fact just trying to establish my credentials on the subject. I also provided basic information on how the product he is using works and what other similar products are out there (we don't sell any of them) since the poster had obviously not been properly informed. I'm more interested in advising the poster on what his options are - he may choose to continue with his current provider, switch to another or use an alternative solution, frankly I have no idea. What I do know is that I can probably point him in the right direction and I'm sure he'll make his own mind up from there.

[plasticpig]

roadsweeper said:

plasticpig said: Ok since people are pushing their companies: Is this comment aimed at me? If so, I apologise if I appeared to be, 'pushing my company', I was in fact just trying to establish my credentials on the subject.

It was sort of. I am bit about wether commercial posting is allowed on PH and whats considered a commercial post? I am resonably new here and dont want to tread on anyones toes for all I know Ted could be about to sign a deal for a big banner ad advertising online backup. I probably did read the T&C's when I joined but I joined to read about cars not to discuss online backup .

[roadsweeper]

plasticpig said:

roadsweeper said: plasticpig said: Ok since people are pushing their companies: Is this comment aimed at me? If so, I apologise if I appeared to be, 'pushing my company', I was in fact just trying to establish my credentials on the subject. It was sort of. I am bit about wether commercial posting is allowed on PH and whats considered a commercial post? I am resonably new here and dont want to tread on anyones toes for all I know Ted could be about to sign a deal for a big banner ad advertising online backup. I probably did read the T&C's when I joined but I joined to read about cars not to discuss online backup .

There are rules about commercial posting. Where I have felt I was clearly writing a commercial post, such as one where I asked for any PH contractor in a certain sector, I have emailed Ted beforehand to check it's OK with him. I think it's fair to say that if someone asks a specific question he's generally fine with someone saying, "We do that, give me a shout if you like!" as opposed to someone starting a new thread or unrelated post saying, "My company does this, anyone interested?" - i.e. blatant canvassing I think that applies particularly on the 'Business' topic though it comes up a lot on this topic too. It might not go down as well elsewhere.

Generally, where it isn't infringing Ted's advertising and isn't blatant canvassing it seems to be allowed. I don't think anyone would want to formally advertise remote backup services or email services via PH given that the core market is automotive.

Having said all that, the above is just my opinion so perhaps we need a clarification from Ted?

[SlidingSideways]

flyingjase said:

It maybe a poor excuse, but there's always the element of forgetting to take the tape offsite. Also, once it's offsite it's very insecure and my entire company records could fall into the wrong hands. That's why I'm resisting this method.

What about an offsite storage company? They turn up at some point in the day and collect the previous days tape and return one from earlier in the cycle. Specific tapes are retained indefinitely for security.

[flyingjase]

SlidingSideways said:

flyingjase said: It maybe a poor excuse, but there's always the element of forgetting to take the tape offsite. Also, once it's offsite it's very insecure and my entire company records could fall into the wrong hands. That's why I'm resisting this method. What about an offsite storage company? They turn up at some point in the day and collect the previous days tape and return one from earlier in the cycle. Specific tapes are retained indefinitely for security.

Intersting - didn't realise that this sort of service existed. It would be interesting to see what the costs are.

[flyingjase]

Thanks to plasticpig and road sweeper for the information / advice on back up solutions