Remote Desktop Technology - Suggestions?
Discussion
Hi
A bit of an open question this one.
I'd like my users to be able to access a remote desktop (regardless of location) within which they can use normal applications like MS Word, etc. The idea is that they can have access to their virtual PC environment regardless of what PC they are actually on. We're talking thin client stuff here.
Some technologies that allow this kind of thing that I'm aware of are:
- Terminal Services/RDP
- Citrix
- Sun Secure Global Desktop
I'm looking for something that will keep the costs per user down, is fast and will support your typical Windows environment with users having access to Word, Excel, etc.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Cheers,
roadie.
A bit of an open question this one.
I'd like my users to be able to access a remote desktop (regardless of location) within which they can use normal applications like MS Word, etc. The idea is that they can have access to their virtual PC environment regardless of what PC they are actually on. We're talking thin client stuff here.
Some technologies that allow this kind of thing that I'm aware of are:
- Terminal Services/RDP
- Citrix
- Sun Secure Global Desktop
I'm looking for something that will keep the costs per user down, is fast and will support your typical Windows environment with users having access to Word, Excel, etc.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Cheers,
roadie.
I have worked on something like this....
You have not specificed the location but if its internal then you may want to consider the following
RDP - either physical box or a virtual hosted session on a vmware or MS virtual server
Citrix - either hosted applications of a hosted desktop
For the security wrapper bit ie external facing you could use an ssl vpn layer such as juniper to give you full access in with a client that can run on anything.
You have not specificed the location but if its internal then you may want to consider the following
RDP - either physical box or a virtual hosted session on a vmware or MS virtual server
Citrix - either hosted applications of a hosted desktop
For the security wrapper bit ie external facing you could use an ssl vpn layer such as juniper to give you full access in with a client that can run on anything.
"Regardless of location"...who controls the client device in this scenario? If they are accessing from another corporate / Web cafe etc then you will probably not be able to go the VPN route as you won't be able to install the client (although you stand a chance if you go the Citrix Access Gateway route - in VPN mode).
Alternatively CAG & CPS is your best bet.
RDP/MSTS can't deliver what you want in a secure fashion - even in Longhorn (depending upon your definition of 'secure')
Alternatively CAG & CPS is your best bet.
RDP/MSTS can't deliver what you want in a secure fashion - even in Longhorn (depending upon your definition of 'secure')
OK, you've got a VPN so:
- do you want to be able to publish applications, or just a desktop?
- what level of configuration can the users cope with - do you want a solution where all config is server-side, presenting applications as links in a web page?
- how many authentication steps can the users put up with - is single sign on important?
- how many users?
- what is most important - a relatively sophisticated solution with lower TCO but higher initial cost, or a cheaper to set up but harder to support solution?
- what else would you like / want to do other than give access to a Windows applications over a client VPN?...e.g. secure clientless access to e-mail, web apps, file shares?
PS. I do this for a living
- do you want to be able to publish applications, or just a desktop?
- what level of configuration can the users cope with - do you want a solution where all config is server-side, presenting applications as links in a web page?
- how many authentication steps can the users put up with - is single sign on important?
- how many users?
- what is most important - a relatively sophisticated solution with lower TCO but higher initial cost, or a cheaper to set up but harder to support solution?
- what else would you like / want to do other than give access to a Windows applications over a client VPN?...e.g. secure clientless access to e-mail, web apps, file shares?
PS. I do this for a living
Plotloss said:
RDP through the VPN.
That would be my suggestion for a "simple" solution if they've got their own desktop PCs, or if you've got the capacity to fire up a few VMWare/MS Virtual PC images. One thing I put in place was switching all the developers in the bank across to running Virtual PCs with their "work" environments on them. That way (in principle), they can just take that hard drive image with them anywhere on an external drive, etc. and carry on working, knowing the applications, data, etc. that's going to be available. If they won't have access at any location to a stable/performant 'Net connection, this has its merits (and its demerits, mind!)
When KingMax bring out an upgraded "the-size-of-a-paperclip" USB drive that's 8GB+ rather than the current 1GB I'm using, I think I'll put a full VPC image onto it (usually runs to about 4-5GB for a workable, optimised one with Office, etc.)
_deejay_ said:
The issue with RDP'ing to Virtual Machines is that you'll need something to redirect you to a free session (assuming > 1 to 1).
The new low end version of ESX server (3) is also pretty cheap (<500 quid IIRC) and we've run 30 VM's on a dual proc server.
The new low end version of ESX server (3) is also pretty cheap (<500 quid IIRC) and we've run 30 VM's on a dual proc server.
This sounds interesting. I'm amazed to hear you had 30 VMs running on a dual-processor system - may I ask the following:
- Were the 30 systems able to run concurrently?
- What was 'typicaly' being done on the 30 systems - are we talking typical desktop apps like Word, Excel and Outlook?
- What speed processors did the server have?
- How much RAM did the processors have?
- How many 'typical' office worker users might I expect to run on a 2 x dual-core system with 8GB RAM and RAID5 15,000rpm SAS HDDs?
- What were the bandwidth overheads like for each user - many of our users will be connecting via an Internet connection?
- What thin client-side software did you use, the VMWare site mentions a customer using 2X Thin Client software?
Apologies for all the questions - I hope you don't mind?!
roadsweeper said:
_deejay_ said:
The issue with RDP'ing to Virtual Machines is that you'll need something to redirect you to a free session (assuming > 1 to 1).
The new low end version of ESX server (3) is also pretty cheap (<500 quid IIRC) and we've run 30 VM's on a dual proc server.
The new low end version of ESX server (3) is also pretty cheap (<500 quid IIRC) and we've run 30 VM's on a dual proc server.
This sounds interesting. I'm amazed to hear you had 30 VMs running on a dual-processor system - may I ask the following:
- Were the 30 systems able to run concurrently?
- What was 'typicaly' being done on the 30 systems - are we talking typical desktop apps like Word, Excel and Outlook?
- What speed processors did the server have?
- How much RAM did the processors have?
- How many 'typical' office worker users might I expect to run on a 2 x dual-core system with 8GB RAM and RAID5 15,000rpm SAS HDDs?
- What were the bandwidth overheads like for each user - many of our users will be connecting via an Internet connection?
- What thin client-side software did you use, the VMWare site mentions a customer using 2X Thin Client software?
Apologies for all the questions - I hope you don't mind?!
Ok, I'll try to answer but first I'll come clean:
1) We're currently running 30 production Windows 2003 Servers per dual processor machine at the moment on ESX 2.5.3 (though v3.0 is said to scale better)
We're also evaluating ESX 3.0 which will allow us to load machines more due to resource balancing (where hosts are moved between physical machines on the fly)
2) I tested Windows XP running on a 4 way IBM box, a 4 way dual core opteron HP and 2 way dual core opteron in a previous position
When testing XP desktops, we used LoadRunner to do sample desktop tasks (running multiple office apps concurrently). The IBM box was frankly useless but the HP boxes were amazing.
I've since used nothing but HP DL385 and 585's all using Opteron Dual Cores.
Running typical Windows 2003 Servers (not Exchange or SQL) I've found that the machines run with 25 VM's at about 30-45% CPU, though they are using most of the 16GB of memory in the machines. However, all our machines are SAN connected, so I'm sure how SATA disks will affect your scalability.
There's a new local cost ESX software license for hosts with 8MB of memory and 2 processors (sockets, not cores) which is perfect for our remote sites, and the server spec you gave.
So, to answer your questions:
1) Yes
2) Typical Office Apps
3) 2.4Ghz Dual Opterons
4) 16GB (or 32GB on the 4 way boxes)
5) I'd guess on 16-20, if you don't run client virus software. You'll run out of disk or memory before CPU
6) This is just RDP traffic, so on average 15Kb-25KB/second
7) Windows XP, using the built in Remote Desktop functionality.
maddog-uk said:
we have had similar experiences on AMD HP kit to _deejay_! Using vmotion to move clients on the fly if we basically hit a processor snag.
We're implementing v3.0 in the next month or two (enterprise edition) so testing the new dynamic load balancing through automated vmotion should certainly be interested. I just hope it proves more reliable than the betas!
D
maddog-uk said:
I know thats the feature we were waiting for as it was a royal pain with the HP monitors and sdk. Still I think I have been tempted by platespin! P2V V2V and V2P with one product warm is very attractive.
We've used it for a while. It's ok - and works well when using supported hardware.
I think Vmware are licensing their P2V product more agressively now too....
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