Fun with call centres
Discussion
Young Sarah noticed that our network speed had dropped from the usual not bad to the quite frankly bloody awful.
So, I try all the usual things (confirm I see the same thing on a wired connection, check the router for collisions/errors/etc, reboot the router, reboot the cable modem, all that good stuff).
Makes no odds. Looking at my network stats, I see ramp ups to peak throughput, and then sudden backoff to not much followed by ramping up again. In TCP/IP networks, this usually indicates packet loss of some form. Fire up WireShark, and indeed that's what it seems to be suggesting also.
So I call the support line.
Sigh.
For those of you who don't know how these orgs work, you have tiered support.
Tier 3 are very technical, and are there for the serious issues (whole network outages etc). It would be very very unusual for a customer to get to tier 3 support generally.
Tier 2 are for things that tier 1 cannot solve. Basically, if the set questions that tier 1 ask do not resolve the issue, they escalate to tier 2.
Tier 1 are the people who lead you through the set 15 or so questions (is it turned on, is it plugged in, do you have a IP address etc etc.) They may well have a decent knowledge of the network (I've spoken to some excellent tier 1 folks in the past) and go beyond what is expect to assist, they may just follow the questions on screen. When they get to the end, they go to tier 2.
You get tier 1 first.
So I get through, and start explaining the issue. He pulls up my account details - for the old house which we left 2 months ago. This is not a good start.
He then has me run a speed test while he checks the modem. I report 200-300kbits/sec. I'm expecting in excess of 3.4Mbps/sec.
He asks me to reboot the cable modem. I do so. It makes no difference. I mention that I think we're having some packet loss.
He then asks me to go to control panel (he's going for the firewalls).
I explain that I'm using Fedora 5 on the latest kernal, and the firewall is already disabled. This seems to not fit in with the next thing on his screen, so he ignores me and continues. I decide to simply play along.
This goes on for a while ("open internet explorer....."
Eventually, we end up with my entire network disabled, and the cable modem connected directly to my linux box. ("run ipconfig /renew to get the new IP address" - thanks, I'll stick with my usual ifconfig if it's ok with you)
We have the same result in terms of speed. He then seems to decide that it's my non standard OS that's at fault (I explain that I have 5 devices connected to the network, all of which show the same thing), and asks me to use a windows machine. (at this point, I'll admit I was *sorely* tempted to fire up VMware within Linux and use that, but decide what I need to do is play along, get escalated to tier 2 who can actually help. So, XP laptop booted, plug in directly, same result. We're 30-40mins in by now.
I mention that I'm pretty familar with IP networks and throughput issues in particular, and I really think we may be having some packet loss.
At this point, strangely, the line goes dead. I redial, to discover that the call centre I was using is now closed. I will choose to believe this was an unfortunate technical glitch, and not a cynical way to get rid so they can go home.
I must ring another one now, I do so, get tier 1 and we start the process again.
Deep deep joy.
So, knowing what questions he's going to ask, I try to get most of them out of the way as fast as possibe. This works after a fashion, and this guy seems to be more helpful. We try some proxies, to no avail (in fact they're worse).
I mention the packet loss theory. It seems to be ignored.
3 XP boots, other actions too dull to mention, and another 20-30 mins later, he deletes and recreates my modem from the system. My datarate *leaps* to a huge 600-700Kbits/sec. This is better, but I'm paying for 4Meg.
He then tries to convince me that there are 8bytes in a bit, and that I'm actually getting the correct rate.
I'll choose to believe it was a genuine mistake on his part, and not a cynical attempt to fob me off.
I gently explain the maths, and point out that if that were the case I'd be seeing more throughput that the connection is dimentioned for.
At this point he escalates me to tier 2.
I join a queue. For about 3-4 minutes.
Tier 2 answer. I explain the problem. They ask a couple of questions to clarify, and I mention my packet loss theory again.
Tier 2 say "sounds like it to me, let me check something"
clicky-click
"hmm, can you just unplug the ethernet from the modem"
clicky-click
"yup, seeing 10-15% packet loss to the modem. Suggest it's either the box outside or the cable modem itself. Can't tell you which from here, we'll send an engineer out for a site visit, how's next monday after work?"
Total elapsed time, about 75 minutes. Total time that was actually needed to report the issue and confirm, about 120 seconds.
I really, really want a direct line to tier 2 support for future reference.
So, I try all the usual things (confirm I see the same thing on a wired connection, check the router for collisions/errors/etc, reboot the router, reboot the cable modem, all that good stuff).
Makes no odds. Looking at my network stats, I see ramp ups to peak throughput, and then sudden backoff to not much followed by ramping up again. In TCP/IP networks, this usually indicates packet loss of some form. Fire up WireShark, and indeed that's what it seems to be suggesting also.
So I call the support line.
Sigh.
For those of you who don't know how these orgs work, you have tiered support.
Tier 3 are very technical, and are there for the serious issues (whole network outages etc). It would be very very unusual for a customer to get to tier 3 support generally.
Tier 2 are for things that tier 1 cannot solve. Basically, if the set questions that tier 1 ask do not resolve the issue, they escalate to tier 2.
Tier 1 are the people who lead you through the set 15 or so questions (is it turned on, is it plugged in, do you have a IP address etc etc.) They may well have a decent knowledge of the network (I've spoken to some excellent tier 1 folks in the past) and go beyond what is expect to assist, they may just follow the questions on screen. When they get to the end, they go to tier 2.
You get tier 1 first.
So I get through, and start explaining the issue. He pulls up my account details - for the old house which we left 2 months ago. This is not a good start.
He then has me run a speed test while he checks the modem. I report 200-300kbits/sec. I'm expecting in excess of 3.4Mbps/sec.
He asks me to reboot the cable modem. I do so. It makes no difference. I mention that I think we're having some packet loss.
He then asks me to go to control panel (he's going for the firewalls).
I explain that I'm using Fedora 5 on the latest kernal, and the firewall is already disabled. This seems to not fit in with the next thing on his screen, so he ignores me and continues. I decide to simply play along.
This goes on for a while ("open internet explorer....."
Eventually, we end up with my entire network disabled, and the cable modem connected directly to my linux box. ("run ipconfig /renew to get the new IP address" - thanks, I'll stick with my usual ifconfig if it's ok with you)
We have the same result in terms of speed. He then seems to decide that it's my non standard OS that's at fault (I explain that I have 5 devices connected to the network, all of which show the same thing), and asks me to use a windows machine. (at this point, I'll admit I was *sorely* tempted to fire up VMware within Linux and use that, but decide what I need to do is play along, get escalated to tier 2 who can actually help. So, XP laptop booted, plug in directly, same result. We're 30-40mins in by now.
I mention that I'm pretty familar with IP networks and throughput issues in particular, and I really think we may be having some packet loss.
At this point, strangely, the line goes dead. I redial, to discover that the call centre I was using is now closed. I will choose to believe this was an unfortunate technical glitch, and not a cynical way to get rid so they can go home.
I must ring another one now, I do so, get tier 1 and we start the process again.
Deep deep joy.
So, knowing what questions he's going to ask, I try to get most of them out of the way as fast as possibe. This works after a fashion, and this guy seems to be more helpful. We try some proxies, to no avail (in fact they're worse).
I mention the packet loss theory. It seems to be ignored.
3 XP boots, other actions too dull to mention, and another 20-30 mins later, he deletes and recreates my modem from the system. My datarate *leaps* to a huge 600-700Kbits/sec. This is better, but I'm paying for 4Meg.
He then tries to convince me that there are 8bytes in a bit, and that I'm actually getting the correct rate.
I'll choose to believe it was a genuine mistake on his part, and not a cynical attempt to fob me off.
I gently explain the maths, and point out that if that were the case I'd be seeing more throughput that the connection is dimentioned for.
At this point he escalates me to tier 2.
I join a queue. For about 3-4 minutes.
Tier 2 answer. I explain the problem. They ask a couple of questions to clarify, and I mention my packet loss theory again.
Tier 2 say "sounds like it to me, let me check something"
clicky-click
"hmm, can you just unplug the ethernet from the modem"
clicky-click
"yup, seeing 10-15% packet loss to the modem. Suggest it's either the box outside or the cable modem itself. Can't tell you which from here, we'll send an engineer out for a site visit, how's next monday after work?"
Total elapsed time, about 75 minutes. Total time that was actually needed to report the issue and confirm, about 120 seconds.
I really, really want a direct line to tier 2 support for future reference.
Mr E said:
I really, really want a direct line to tier 2 support for future reference.
Then buy your bandwidth directly from a tier two providor. You pay for what you get.
You really really don't want to pay for it so stop moaning when a couple of sites don't work 'cos you cheap ISP can't re-rout around a core router failure as soon as you'd like.
mattley said:
Mr E said:
I really, really want a direct line to tier 2 support for future reference.
Then buy your bandwidth directly from a tier two providor. You pay for what you get.
You really really don't want to pay for it so stop moaning when a couple of sites don't work 'cos you cheap ISP can't re-rout around a core router failure as soon as you'd like.
I'm open to suggestions for an alternative cable provider.
Furthermore,
You really really don't want to pay for it so stop moaning when a couple of sites don't work 'cos you cheap ISP can't re-rout around a core router failure as soon as you'd like.
Nothing to do with core routers. Failure of their equipment in my house. Which I debugged, told them the issue, offered to provide trace to support my theory and still had to go through the "go to control panel" for about an hour.
Packet loss should be very, very easy to spot from a network point of view.
mattley said:
You really really don't want to pay for it so stop moaning when a couple of sites don't work 'cos you cheap ISP can't re-rout around a core router failure as soon as you'd like.
Nothing to do with core routers. Failure of their equipment in my house. Which I debugged, told them the issue, offered to provide trace to support my theory and still had to go through the "go to control panel" for about an hour.
Packet loss should be very, very easy to spot from a network point of view.
Edited by Mr E on Wednesday 8th November 10:09
Guy was clearly just daft, or very new.
I used to do tech support for Telewest before I finished Uni. Interestingly they don't actually have a set way of dealing with problems, its pretty much down to who you speak to which questions are asked and how you do things.
If they are reasonably bright then something like packet loss would be max a 5 min call before asking 2nd line to have a look at it. So another few min followed by booking you an engineer to come n replace the modem usually.
I used to do tech support for Telewest before I finished Uni. Interestingly they don't actually have a set way of dealing with problems, its pretty much down to who you speak to which questions are asked and how you do things.
If they are reasonably bright then something like packet loss would be max a 5 min call before asking 2nd line to have a look at it. So another few min followed by booking you an engineer to come n replace the modem usually.
s13_alan said:
Guy was clearly just daft, or very new.
Not in my experience. I've worked in IT for over 30 years now and have been through similar wearisome nonsense dozens of times (or, these days, watched one of my people do it.) I had exactly the same experience a few weeks ago with the (premium rate) "support" line for my Linksys wireless Access Point; the guy was a patronising idiot, and after about half a dozen ludicrous suggestions, I hung up on him and fixed the problem myself from the Web. (Oh, and vowed never to buy any Linksys kit ever again.)
Sun Microsystems, a few years ago, had a "This customer knows what they're doing" flag on your contract details, so when you called, they put you straight through to Tier 2 support. Dunno if they still do that.
zumbruk said:
Sun Microsystems, a few years ago, had a "This customer knows what they're doing" flag on your contract details, so when you called, they put you straight through to Tier 2 support. Dunno if they still do that.
From experience, they still do that. I had a flag along the lines of "just mail him the replacement bit and let him fit it". Saves them money, saves me time. Everyone's happy.
I only screwed up once. I was unaware that the Ultra 80 had a sensor that wouldn't allow you to power up if the lid was off.
Due to various operationa constraints, getting access to the beast was a pain, so I would usually fix it, fire it up, make sure it booted correctly, then power it down, put the lid back on and plug it all in again.....except this machine failed to power up......
zumbruk said:
s13_alan said:
Guy was clearly just daft, or very new.
Not in my experience. I've worked in IT for over 30 years now and have been through similar wearisome nonsense dozens of times (or, these days, watched one of my people do it.) I had exactly the same experience a few weeks ago with the (premium rate) "support" line for my Linksys wireless Access Point; the guy was a patronising idiot, and after about half a dozen ludicrous suggestions, I hung up on him and fixed the problem myself from the Web. (Oh, and vowed never to buy any Linksys kit ever again.)
Sun Microsystems, a few years ago, had a "This customer knows what they're doing" flag on your contract details, so when you called, they put you straight through to Tier 2 support. Dunno if they still do that.
Yeah but again its down to the individual you speak to. Some are just that bit more aware of the fact that not everything they deal with will fit into that set of questions which they have.
If someone called up when I was doing it, and said right this is broke, here's what it's doing, i've tried this... id just go ok cool, and do what was needed. If they had to call back I would tell them exactly what to say, so that they didn't have the sort of problems that are being mentioned.
I like the idea of a 'customer knows something' option, but sadly in my experience it would be rather underused.
Same as me trying to fix something, I think most folk who have a good understanding of computing would rather chew their arm off than actually phone tech support... and when they do, they get treated the same at the others who just pick up the phone without putting in any concious effort in order to fix the issue.
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