Early Macbook Pro - Overheating, too much thermal paste!
Discussion
I think a lot of people with early (and some later) Macbook Pros have had issues with overheating. Apple, in their wisdom responded by slightly changing all of their references to their 'laptops' to 'notebooks' or portables.
You might have also seen some of the photos that people have posted when they have disassembled their Pro to find the thermal paste literally oozing out over the processor and heatsink as so much was applied. As there was so much thermal paste applied, this was hardly efficient and the heat was not escaping as it should and radiating through the casing making the casing unbearably hot.
I have put up with the issue for pretty much two years, and decided to check mine out. With a few internet pages open as well as Excel and Mail, under pretty much idle or low usage conditions, the temp would regularly hit 70 degrees with the fans kicking in and under load easily over 80 degrees with the fans very audible.
I got the instructions from iFixit.com and the right Torx screwdriver and had a look. Lo and behold, at a guess and from installing numerous processors and heatsinks in the past, the people who applied the paste must have applied an amount the size of a pea to each of the three chips. As well as a good amount splodged around the outside of the chip due to it being forced out from between the chip and heatsink, left between the chip and heatsink was enough to be the thinkness of a cardboard sheet - maybe about 500gsm thickness. - and a lot of areas where it had 'splodged' thicker than that!
After clearing it all up and cleaning the surfaces with Isopropyl alcohol I reapplied good silver based paste in the correct amount, and put it all back together.
A lot has been said about the benefit of this, and there has been 'scientific'(ish) tests to see by how much is has made a difference. Some have said losses of a couple of degrees, some have said 15 degrees or more. Each of these tests have been attacked for not testing properly.
IMHO, and why I am posting now is that I would personally recommend it. Whilst the headline temperature drops - the one shown up in diagnostics haven't changed much, what I have noticed is that in general all the temps are cooler, and the fans have to kick in a lot less, and when they do modest and inaudible increases are enough to adjust the temperature.
If your machine is in warranty, I would certainly look to get Apple to fix it if you have problems. If not, I would say to try yourself if you have experience in this type of thing, and you are brave. I am reasonably experienced, and this was the most difficult disassembly I have done by a long shot. There are a lot of fiddly connectors, and about 25 screws - but if it matters to you, my opinion is that replacing the thermal paste makes a significant difference.
You might have also seen some of the photos that people have posted when they have disassembled their Pro to find the thermal paste literally oozing out over the processor and heatsink as so much was applied. As there was so much thermal paste applied, this was hardly efficient and the heat was not escaping as it should and radiating through the casing making the casing unbearably hot.
I have put up with the issue for pretty much two years, and decided to check mine out. With a few internet pages open as well as Excel and Mail, under pretty much idle or low usage conditions, the temp would regularly hit 70 degrees with the fans kicking in and under load easily over 80 degrees with the fans very audible.
I got the instructions from iFixit.com and the right Torx screwdriver and had a look. Lo and behold, at a guess and from installing numerous processors and heatsinks in the past, the people who applied the paste must have applied an amount the size of a pea to each of the three chips. As well as a good amount splodged around the outside of the chip due to it being forced out from between the chip and heatsink, left between the chip and heatsink was enough to be the thinkness of a cardboard sheet - maybe about 500gsm thickness. - and a lot of areas where it had 'splodged' thicker than that!
After clearing it all up and cleaning the surfaces with Isopropyl alcohol I reapplied good silver based paste in the correct amount, and put it all back together.
A lot has been said about the benefit of this, and there has been 'scientific'(ish) tests to see by how much is has made a difference. Some have said losses of a couple of degrees, some have said 15 degrees or more. Each of these tests have been attacked for not testing properly.
IMHO, and why I am posting now is that I would personally recommend it. Whilst the headline temperature drops - the one shown up in diagnostics haven't changed much, what I have noticed is that in general all the temps are cooler, and the fans have to kick in a lot less, and when they do modest and inaudible increases are enough to adjust the temperature.
If your machine is in warranty, I would certainly look to get Apple to fix it if you have problems. If not, I would say to try yourself if you have experience in this type of thing, and you are brave. I am reasonably experienced, and this was the most difficult disassembly I have done by a long shot. There are a lot of fiddly connectors, and about 25 screws - but if it matters to you, my opinion is that replacing the thermal paste makes a significant difference.
Edited by JustinP1 on Monday 11th February 14:49
JustinP1 said:
I think a lot of people with early (and some later) Macbook Pros have had issues with overheating. Apple, in their wisdom responded by slightly changing all of their references to their 'laptops' to 'notebooks' or portables.
You might have also seen some of the photos that people have posted when they have disassembled their Pro to find the thermal paste literally oozing out over the processor and heatsink as so much was applied. As there was so much thermal paste applied, this was hardly efficient and the heat was not escaping as it should and radiating through the casing making the casing unbearably hot.
I have put up with the issue for pretty much two years, and decided to check mine out. With a few internet pages open as well as Excel and Mail, under pretty much idle or low usage conditions, the temp would regularly hit 70 degrees with the fans kicking in and under load easily over 80 degrees with the fans very audible.
I got the instructions from iFixit.com and the right Torx screwdriver and had a look. Lo and behold, at a guess and from installing numerous processors and heatsinks in the past, the people who applied the paste must have applied an amount the size of a pea to each of the three chips. As well as a good amount splodged around the outside of the chip due to it being forced out from between the chip and heatsink, left between the chip and heatsink was enough to be the thinkness of a cardboard sheet - maybe about 500gsm thickness. - and a lot of areas where it had 'splodged' thicker than that!
After clearing it all up and cleaning the surfaces with Isopropyl alcohol I reapplied good silver based paste in the correct amount, and put it all back together.
A lot has been said about the benefit of this, and there has been 'scientific'(ish) tests to see by how much is has made a difference. Some have said losses of a couple of degrees, some have said 15 degrees or more. Each of these tests have been attacked for not testing properly.
IMHO, and why I am posting now is that I would personally recommend it. Whilst the headline temperature drops - the one shown up in diagnostics haven't changed much, what I have noticed is that in general all the temps are cooler, and the fans have to kick in a lot less, and when they do modest and inaudible increases are enough to adjust the temperature.
If your machine is in warranty, I would certainly look to get Apple to fix it if you have problems. If not, I would say to try yourself if you have experience in this type of thing, and you are brave. I am reasonably experienced, and this was the most difficult disassembly I have done by a long shot. There are a lot of fiddly connectors, and about 25 screws - but if it matters to you, my opinion is that replacing the thermal paste makes a significant difference.
Excellent information, I wonder if it is the same with Macbooks? You might have also seen some of the photos that people have posted when they have disassembled their Pro to find the thermal paste literally oozing out over the processor and heatsink as so much was applied. As there was so much thermal paste applied, this was hardly efficient and the heat was not escaping as it should and radiating through the casing making the casing unbearably hot.
I have put up with the issue for pretty much two years, and decided to check mine out. With a few internet pages open as well as Excel and Mail, under pretty much idle or low usage conditions, the temp would regularly hit 70 degrees with the fans kicking in and under load easily over 80 degrees with the fans very audible.
I got the instructions from iFixit.com and the right Torx screwdriver and had a look. Lo and behold, at a guess and from installing numerous processors and heatsinks in the past, the people who applied the paste must have applied an amount the size of a pea to each of the three chips. As well as a good amount splodged around the outside of the chip due to it being forced out from between the chip and heatsink, left between the chip and heatsink was enough to be the thinkness of a cardboard sheet - maybe about 500gsm thickness. - and a lot of areas where it had 'splodged' thicker than that!
After clearing it all up and cleaning the surfaces with Isopropyl alcohol I reapplied good silver based paste in the correct amount, and put it all back together.
A lot has been said about the benefit of this, and there has been 'scientific'(ish) tests to see by how much is has made a difference. Some have said losses of a couple of degrees, some have said 15 degrees or more. Each of these tests have been attacked for not testing properly.
IMHO, and why I am posting now is that I would personally recommend it. Whilst the headline temperature drops - the one shown up in diagnostics haven't changed much, what I have noticed is that in general all the temps are cooler, and the fans have to kick in a lot less, and when they do modest and inaudible increases are enough to adjust the temperature.
If your machine is in warranty, I would certainly look to get Apple to fix it if you have problems. If not, I would say to try yourself if you have experience in this type of thing, and you are brave. I am reasonably experienced, and this was the most difficult disassembly I have done by a long shot. There are a lot of fiddly connectors, and about 25 screws - but if it matters to you, my opinion is that replacing the thermal paste makes a significant difference.
Edited by JustinP1 on Monday 11th February 14:49
From what this says, yes, unfortunately.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=201
Have a look at the picture which is allegedly from the Apple Macbook service manual, and how much is shown to be squeezed onto the top of the chip. My estimation of the size of a pea seems to be an underestimation - astonishing!
For those that are unaware, according to every instruction booklet for thermal grease and processors I have read, the correct amount is the thinnest amount possible to ensure that the microscopic imperfections in the smooth surface of the processor and heatsink are filled with the paste so that there is no air trapped in between the two, and thus insulating the heatsink from the processor.
With the amount they are putting on, all that is doing is effectively insulating the heatsink from the processor with paste!
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=201
Have a look at the picture which is allegedly from the Apple Macbook service manual, and how much is shown to be squeezed onto the top of the chip. My estimation of the size of a pea seems to be an underestimation - astonishing!
For those that are unaware, according to every instruction booklet for thermal grease and processors I have read, the correct amount is the thinnest amount possible to ensure that the microscopic imperfections in the smooth surface of the processor and heatsink are filled with the paste so that there is no air trapped in between the two, and thus insulating the heatsink from the processor.
With the amount they are putting on, all that is doing is effectively insulating the heatsink from the processor with paste!
it wasn't as simple as that - a fair few early MBPs had faulty heatpipe units and no amount of lapping CPUs, arctic silver or reassembly would stop them thermal throttling at high load. Put Bresink's Hardware Monitor on your MBP and run Cinebench - if you hit 84 C then the CPU will slow down to 1 GHz... I had one, repaired the thermal grease but it was still throttling under load.
Subsequent investigation showed the apparent over-application of thermal grease to be mostly irrelevant. Didn't help, sure - but wasn't the main cause of the problem.
If your MBP won't sustain the GHz shown on the box under load then get it replaced. It's defective, and the duff heatpipe will eventually kill it.
Subsequent investigation showed the apparent over-application of thermal grease to be mostly irrelevant. Didn't help, sure - but wasn't the main cause of the problem.
If your MBP won't sustain the GHz shown on the box under load then get it replaced. It's defective, and the duff heatpipe will eventually kill it.
Just ran Cinebench, and got the temp up to 93 degrees at the absolute leak, however soon after this the fans understandably cut in at 4000 rpm, and the temp cooled back to the 80's.
However, I didnt see any throttling back of the CPUs though, they remained at 100%.
It seems to me that perhaps this badboy just runs hot under maximum load. I do think though with the paste replaced it does allow the heatpipes to do their job more efficiently. As the fans didnt seem bothered at all until 90 degrees plus, and then the temperature fell within a couple of seconds.
However, I didnt see any throttling back of the CPUs though, they remained at 100%.
It seems to me that perhaps this badboy just runs hot under maximum load. I do think though with the paste replaced it does allow the heatpipes to do their job more efficiently. As the fans didnt seem bothered at all until 90 degrees plus, and then the temperature fell within a couple of seconds.
JustinP1 said:
Just ran Cinebench, and got the temp up to 93 degrees at the absolute leak, however soon after this the fans understandably cut in at 4000 rpm, and the temp cooled back to the 80's.
However, I didnt see any throttling back of the CPUs though, they remained at 100%.
It seems to me that perhaps this badboy just runs hot under maximum load. I do think though with the paste replaced it does allow the heatpipes to do their job more efficiently. As the fans didnt seem bothered at all until 90 degrees plus, and then the temperature fell within a couple of seconds.
Have you got the actual processor speed displayed? 93 is far too hot for the Core Duo.However, I didnt see any throttling back of the CPUs though, they remained at 100%.
It seems to me that perhaps this badboy just runs hot under maximum load. I do think though with the paste replaced it does allow the heatpipes to do their job more efficiently. As the fans didnt seem bothered at all until 90 degrees plus, and then the temperature fell within a couple of seconds.
I had another tool at the time which showed the actual clockspeed of the CPU, which as you know fluctuates according to demand to save power. It also clocks down to a minimum of 1000 MHz when too hot, which is what mine was doing. Yours won't last long at 93C - as I said the heatpipes were faulty on some of the early ones. With proper thermal grease (as you've done) and a heatpipe / fan combination, you should NEVER be seeing 90+ temps even under full load. My replacement first-gen MBP never got above 74C under any load, neither did my first Macbook, neither does my current Macbook (which gets hammered).
Lest you think I'm talking shite, I have some experience of this... I pulled mine apart to redo the thermal grease but it had no effect on the throttling. Apple eventually swapped it out for a brand new one - it wouldn't run Cinebench (just a heavy load to test it really, not an app I use) without throttling back to 1 GHz. And I'd paid for the fastest CPU, so I wanted the speed on the box... I'd definitely check - even if it's just by comparing Cinebench scores to similar config MBPs.
There are a few long threads on the Mac Ach on Ars Technica about it, I was very active on the main thread since I also tried the thermal paste 'solution' right back at the start...
Catherine197 said:
Ah that's interesting. The other halfs Powerbook gets extremely hot, so I guess it could be the same problem.
If you're other half has a PowerBook they're slightly different and tend to run quite warm (although not so compared to the roasting newer Intel stuff 
)And I completely agree with Cyberface, at 93C that is not going to last long at all.
My desktop is set to shut down when the CPU reaches 70C (although admittedly it is an AMD CPU, but temp is pretty comparable), so I would be terrified of mine hitting 93C.
Anything in the 80s under full load or not is too hot for sustained use.
One of the things that put me off an MB...
cyberface said:
JustinP1 said:
Just ran Cinebench, and got the temp up to 93 degrees at the absolute leak, however soon after this the fans understandably cut in at 4000 rpm, and the temp cooled back to the 80's.
However, I didnt see any throttling back of the CPUs though, they remained at 100%.
It seems to me that perhaps this badboy just runs hot under maximum load. I do think though with the paste replaced it does allow the heatpipes to do their job more efficiently. As the fans didnt seem bothered at all until 90 degrees plus, and then the temperature fell within a couple of seconds.
Have you got the actual processor speed displayed? 93 is far too hot for the Core Duo.However, I didnt see any throttling back of the CPUs though, they remained at 100%.
It seems to me that perhaps this badboy just runs hot under maximum load. I do think though with the paste replaced it does allow the heatpipes to do their job more efficiently. As the fans didnt seem bothered at all until 90 degrees plus, and then the temperature fell within a couple of seconds.
I had another tool at the time which showed the actual clockspeed of the CPU, which as you know fluctuates according to demand to save power. It also clocks down to a minimum of 1000 MHz when too hot, which is what mine was doing. Yours won't last long at 93C - as I said the heatpipes were faulty on some of the early ones. With proper thermal grease (as you've done) and a heatpipe / fan combination, you should NEVER be seeing 90+ temps even under full load. My replacement first-gen MBP never got above 74C under any load, neither did my first Macbook, neither does my current Macbook (which gets hammered).
Lest you think I'm talking shite, I have some experience of this... I pulled mine apart to redo the thermal grease but it had no effect on the throttling. Apple eventually swapped it out for a brand new one - it wouldn't run Cinebench (just a heavy load to test it really, not an app I use) without throttling back to 1 GHz. And I'd paid for the fastest CPU, so I wanted the speed on the box... I'd definitely check - even if it's just by comparing Cinebench scores to similar config MBPs.
There are a few long threads on the Mac Ach on Ars Technica about it, I was very active on the main thread since I also tried the thermal paste 'solution' right back at the start...
I think you are right. Out of interest, did these throttling issues occur before the fan/heat firmware update?
Looking at the Intel specs of the Core Duo, it suggests the max temp is 100 degrees. It also suggests that throttling should sometimes occur under heavy load for short periods.
I dont know how much of an argument I can make though as mine doesnt throttle back according to the widget I have just installed. It goes from 1.3GHz idle to 2.2 under load, no throttling.
There is an annoying side-effect though, the hotter the case, the worse the Airport connection gets.
How did you get Apple to swap yours? Did you go into a shop or did you ring them up?
Cheers for your help!
(A slight bump in the hope cyberface notices the thread again..)
I have seen an online survey of MBP temperatures and mines seems to be in the top rung. The top 15% group peak at just over 90 degrees like mine and the rest are split between peaking at the 80's and the 70's.
On a second note, a useful mod for early MBP users, I have just installed a new 'Airport' card to get the 'n' speed with my router.
You can either get the chip designed for the Mac Pro replacement chip and fit that, but I have only seen it in the US, and its about £70 plus delivery.
However, I have just installed a Dell Wireless 1500 Chip, at £29.99 and it works perfectly. Open case, swop, close case and it worked straight away!
If you have Leopard installed it has the update which makes the 'n' speed work, if not you need to get a 'Wireless N enabler' disk from Apple at £1.99 to obviously enable it.
I have seen an online survey of MBP temperatures and mines seems to be in the top rung. The top 15% group peak at just over 90 degrees like mine and the rest are split between peaking at the 80's and the 70's.
On a second note, a useful mod for early MBP users, I have just installed a new 'Airport' card to get the 'n' speed with my router.
You can either get the chip designed for the Mac Pro replacement chip and fit that, but I have only seen it in the US, and its about £70 plus delivery.
However, I have just installed a Dell Wireless 1500 Chip, at £29.99 and it works perfectly. Open case, swop, close case and it worked straight away!
If you have Leopard installed it has the update which makes the 'n' speed work, if not you need to get a 'Wireless N enabler' disk from Apple at £1.99 to obviously enable it.
JustinP1 said:
(A slight bump in the hope cyberface notices the thread again..)
I have seen an online survey of MBP temperatures and mines seems to be in the top rung. The top 15% group peak at just over 90 degrees like mine and the rest are split between peaking at the 80's and the 70's.
On a second note, a useful mod for early MBP users, I have just installed a new 'Airport' card to get the 'n' speed with my router.
You can either get the chip designed for the Mac Pro replacement chip and fit that, but I have only seen it in the US, and its about £70 plus delivery.
However, I have just installed a Dell Wireless 1500 Chip, at £29.99 and it works perfectly. Open case, swop, close case and it worked straight away!
If you have Leopard installed it has the update which makes the 'n' speed work, if not you need to get a 'Wireless N enabler' disk from Apple at £1.99 to obviously enable it.
Sorry - been very ill - I went to the bluewater shop where I'm a very regular customer I have seen an online survey of MBP temperatures and mines seems to be in the top rung. The top 15% group peak at just over 90 degrees like mine and the rest are split between peaking at the 80's and the 70's.
On a second note, a useful mod for early MBP users, I have just installed a new 'Airport' card to get the 'n' speed with my router.
You can either get the chip designed for the Mac Pro replacement chip and fit that, but I have only seen it in the US, and its about £70 plus delivery.
However, I have just installed a Dell Wireless 1500 Chip, at £29.99 and it works perfectly. Open case, swop, close case and it worked straight away!
If you have Leopard installed it has the update which makes the 'n' speed work, if not you need to get a 'Wireless N enabler' disk from Apple at £1.99 to obviously enable it.
and managed to persuade the 'genius' to send it back as a warranty claim, with no mention of my thermal grease repair.If yours isn't throttling and is performing at the speed on the box (2.2 GHz) then Apple won't replace it - it's doing what it said it does... it just won't last very long. That said, IME Apple kit is tough and will survive a LONG time in really sub-optimal conditions... they tend to pick the top-bin components for a reason, and this was immediately after Ottelini's love-fest with Jobs - I bet Apple got the best of the first Core Duos.
Apple never had to engineer a proper laptop cooling system before - the PPC chips used in their Powerbooks up till then were normally used in routers, network switches etc. !!
cyberface said:
JustinP1 said:
(A slight bump in the hope cyberface notices the thread again..)
I have seen an online survey of MBP temperatures and mines seems to be in the top rung. The top 15% group peak at just over 90 degrees like mine and the rest are split between peaking at the 80's and the 70's.
On a second note, a useful mod for early MBP users, I have just installed a new 'Airport' card to get the 'n' speed with my router.
You can either get the chip designed for the Mac Pro replacement chip and fit that, but I have only seen it in the US, and its about £70 plus delivery.
However, I have just installed a Dell Wireless 1500 Chip, at £29.99 and it works perfectly. Open case, swop, close case and it worked straight away!
If you have Leopard installed it has the update which makes the 'n' speed work, if not you need to get a 'Wireless N enabler' disk from Apple at £1.99 to obviously enable it.
Sorry - been very ill - I went to the bluewater shop where I'm a very regular customer I have seen an online survey of MBP temperatures and mines seems to be in the top rung. The top 15% group peak at just over 90 degrees like mine and the rest are split between peaking at the 80's and the 70's.
On a second note, a useful mod for early MBP users, I have just installed a new 'Airport' card to get the 'n' speed with my router.
You can either get the chip designed for the Mac Pro replacement chip and fit that, but I have only seen it in the US, and its about £70 plus delivery.
However, I have just installed a Dell Wireless 1500 Chip, at £29.99 and it works perfectly. Open case, swop, close case and it worked straight away!
If you have Leopard installed it has the update which makes the 'n' speed work, if not you need to get a 'Wireless N enabler' disk from Apple at £1.99 to obviously enable it.
and managed to persuade the 'genius' to send it back as a warranty claim, with no mention of my thermal grease repair.If yours isn't throttling and is performing at the speed on the box (2.2 GHz) then Apple won't replace it - it's doing what it said it does... it just won't last very long. That said, IME Apple kit is tough and will survive a LONG time in really sub-optimal conditions... they tend to pick the top-bin components for a reason, and this was immediately after Ottelini's love-fest with Jobs - I bet Apple got the best of the first Core Duos.
Apple never had to engineer a proper laptop cooling system before - the PPC chips used in their Powerbooks up till then were normally used in routers, network switches etc. !!
As an interesting sideline, I have a feeling that my laptop is fine...
I did a bit of reading last night and read that the temperature sensor that is reported up in the processor temperature readings is often inaccurate.
The 'real' temperature is read by another sensor that the OS does not access, and the fan control is not OS based it is firmware based and runs independently of the OS.
Logically, I think this would account with my findings. Since the paste update, the fans certainly do come on less. In fact they dont go above 1100rpm until the reported temperature gets up into the 80's, so I am reasonably confident that the processor sensor is wrong as has been reported. The other sensors such as the two heatsink sensors report temps in the 30's at idle, which seem a lot more realistic.
At the moment, at idle, with a few windows open, the processor temp is apparently 60 degrees, but the casing or the laptop, even at the 'roasting' bit above the keyboard is no more than skin temperature... I think its knackered and I am worrying about nothing...!
The metal strip above the keyboard on my very first MBP literally did burn me - more than half a second pressed onto the metal and I'd get a burn.
So it sounds as if your theory is right. Good stuff. After all - forgetting Apple for a moment, Intel aren't going to let their CPUs (and their reputation) go up in smoke if the muppets they sell them to can't engineer a heatpipe cooling system properly. The clockspeed throttling is done *within* the Intel CPU, using calibrated sensors within the CPU itself. It'd be crazy to base the behaviour off a third party's 'engineering'.
Therefore if your CPU isn't throttling speed down, then Intel reckons the chip is well within working tolerances, and so you should be OK
So it sounds as if your theory is right. Good stuff. After all - forgetting Apple for a moment, Intel aren't going to let their CPUs (and their reputation) go up in smoke if the muppets they sell them to can't engineer a heatpipe cooling system properly. The clockspeed throttling is done *within* the Intel CPU, using calibrated sensors within the CPU itself. It'd be crazy to base the behaviour off a third party's 'engineering'.
Therefore if your CPU isn't throttling speed down, then Intel reckons the chip is well within working tolerances, and so you should be OK
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