IP based security cameras

[kryten]

OK, anyone got any experience of these - there seem to be hundreds on the market!

What I'm after is a few cameras, at least one of which is capable of full darkness usage (ie it has IR LEDs) and it would be good if I could get a full IP66 weatherproof housing. Not too bothered about pan/zoom (though it might be fun to play with).

Perectly happy with wired Ethernet, rather than wireless but I also want it to be able to send out a picture every few seconds to a server (pref via Samba though FTP would be OK) as I can then use a PC based activity detection program rather than its onboard software (ie I can mask the road etc so it doesn't detect movement all the time).

So, any suggestions?

[tegwin]

We just upgraded our securitty camera system... all of the old cameras they took out were IP network cameras..

I have one on my desk which I am setting up to broadcast a photo every 1 min to our weatehrstation page.....

Its an axis 2120.... Pretty good camera... They have a big range of cameras.

[Lord Flathead]

Most IP cameras are ok for observation but useless for surveillence.

[AndrewW-G]

We've got them, whilst the cameras themselves are Ok, the recording/control box and software has been a tad temperamental

[Ikemi]

I've installed, configured and maintained a 30-camera based Axis IP CCTV system at my last place - We used a range of cameras that included the cheaper 206/207 series for corridors and rooms, the 212PTZ for a much large hall-sized room and the 232D for outside night-time surveillance.

Excellent equipment and very easy to setup and use! We had two servers with 15 cameras on each (Axis Camera Station) and a couple of NAS storage devices to store all of the data.

The system resulted in 4 convictions.

I'm hoping to install a similar system at my current workplace ... The existing co-ax cameras are awful!

[kryten]

Lord Flathead said:

Most IP cameras are ok for observation but useless for surveillence.

Why?

AndrewW-G said:

We've got them, whilst the cameras themselves are Ok, the recording/control box and software has been a tad temperamental

That's why I wanted something that can output the images via FTP/Samba - that way all the camera is doing is taking a picture and sending it over IP.

Then I can use whatever software I like to do motion detection and image archiving, plus SMS/MMS alerts etc...

[Driller]

Kryten, this may be of some interest to you:

http://www.thesecurityinstaller.co.uk/community/in...

[Lord Flathead]

kryten said:

Lord Flathead said:

Most IP cameras are ok for observation but useless for surveillence.

Why?

There are two types of CCTV systems generally speaking:

Observation - for general use where you want to monitor an area to see people moving about

Surveillance - where you want high definition facial shots which can be blown up to produce high quality pictures. This are used in facial recognition systems as expected to be used by police and the home office as the pictures can be scrutinized professionaly.

Ikemi said:

I've installed, configured and maintained a 30-camera based Axis IP CCTV system at my last place - We used a range of cameras that included the cheaper 206/207 series for corridors and rooms, the 212PTZ for a much large hall-sized room and the 232D for outside night-time surveillance.

Excellent equipment and very easy to setup and use! We had two servers with 15 cameras on each (Axis Camera Station) and a couple of NAS storage devices to store all of the data.

The system resulted in 4 convictions.

I'm hoping to install a similar system at my current workplace ... The existing co-ax cameras are awful!

'The existing coaxial cameras are awful'

Not really a good comparison as they could be either years old or not functioning properly but there is simply no comparison with closed circuit coaxial cameras. In your experience on this particular job you could see a notable improvement but that's not really the case when compared to modern day like for like technologies.

Some information that I will hope explain things better.

IP cameras do not have the same quality imagers inside them that professional cameras do, most only resolute to 640x480 thats translates to VGA resolution.. and even at best they are 1MP and use digital zoom over optical zoom (optical is much much better as it does not pixelate). Now compare that with 2056x1536 which is what a high end camera is capable of. The biggest problem is that they only record a few frames per second over IP due to the massive bandwidth that is needed over IP. This is what people forget to mention as the whole idea is that the camera is a video camera and not a stills camera which grabs the odd frame here and there. You want your system to record at least 30 frames per second else everything you play back will look like a strobe light in a night club and you can bet your arse that the missing frames will be the ones with the evidence in - they always are!

Each 'high-res' IP camera needs about 40-50 gigabytes of traffic in 24hours (and that is at 6 frames per second remeber NOT 30). So if you have 30 cameras then do the math. What kind of servers are you running? Xeon quad cores x8? They would need to be monsters to run 30 cameras (15 each as you say). The cost of the hardware will be sizeable and with 30 cameras requiring 40 gigabytes each equals 1.2 Terrabytes A DAY if I calculate that right (still only 6 frames per second remember), so for an average recorded month, you are going to need two 15 terrabyte servers, which a massive network backplane.. and how much is that going to cost to record VGA/1MP at 6 frames per second? I hope that this is a dedicated CAT5/6 network as you would seriously suffer 'collision city' with packets going over an office shared network. Stick a sniffer on it if this is the case and you havent already.

Anyway, IP cameras are ok if you want lots of pictures at this resolutions but once you try and blow them up they pixelate very quickly and do not offer anything like as much detail. Kind of similar to 255lines resolution from a colour video recorder when compared to 1200 lines that a modern DVR is capable of recording - that's just an analogy. Most of the money in an IP camera is for the webserver inside and not spent on the imager or optics which is whole point of buying a camera. They are, however, very easy to fit (plug and play) and do not require setting up like a true cctv cameras does (white ballance, back/f-stop, etc etc).

'Four convictions' ? Based on admissions from the accused no doubt when told that they have cctv footage I would wager, rather than from the images gained directly from the cctv - the police are good at this. I've never had 4 convictions from one site in the 30 years of supplying professional serveillance equipment (to the home office, banks, hospitals, hotels, etc).

To the OP, if you are serious about recording decent images then you are much better getting a real coaxial camera setup with a proper imager, dedicated DVR with a tapestore. If on the other hand you want plug and play with less image quality and less frames, and maybe a cheaper system then IP is the way to go depending on how many cameras you want.

[Lord Flathead]

No problem my friend AT least you have seen a notable improvement that's the important factor.

I was trying to point out the difference between IP and coax as its a bit of a minefield.

The one thing I've forgot to ask the OP is how much range he is looking for and how much night vision is expecting from what budget? Again the imager is the crucial thing here not just how many LED's it says it has

[Ikemi]

Lord Flathead said:

kryten said:

Lord Flathead said:

Most IP cameras are ok for observation but useless for surveillence.

Why?

There are two types of CCTV systems generally speaking:

Observation - for general use where you want to monitor an area to see people moving about

Surveillance - where you want high definition facial shots which can be blown up to produce high quality pictures. This are used in facial recognition systems as expected to be used by police and the home office as the pictures can be scrutinized professionaly.

Ikemi said:

I've installed, configured and maintained a 30-camera based Axis IP CCTV system at my last place - We used a range of cameras that included the cheaper 206/207 series for corridors and rooms, the 212PTZ for a much large hall-sized room and the 232D for outside night-time surveillance.

Excellent equipment and very easy to setup and use! We had two servers with 15 cameras on each (Axis Camera Station) and a couple of NAS storage devices to store all of the data.

The system resulted in 4 convictions.

I'm hoping to install a similar system at my current workplace ... The existing co-ax cameras are awful!

'The existing coaxial cameras are awful'

Not really a good comparison as they could be either years old or not functioning properly but there is simply no comparison with closed circuit coaxial cameras. In your experience on this particular job you could see a notable improvement but that's not really the case when compared to modern day like for like technologies.

Some information that I will hope explain things better.

IP cameras do not have the same quality imagers inside them that professional cameras do, most only resolute to 640x480 thats translates to VGA resolution.. and even at best they are 1MP and use digital zoom over optical zoom (optical is much much better as it does not pixelate). Now compare that with 2056x1536 which is what a high end camera is capable of. The biggest problem is that they only record a few frames per second over IP due to the massive bandwidth that is needed over IP. This is what people forget to mention as the whole idea is that the camera is a video camera and not a stills camera which grabs the odd frame here and there. You want your system to record at least 30 frames per second else everything you play back will look like a strobe light in a night club and you can bet your arse that the missing frames will be the ones with the evidence in - they always are!

Each 'high-res' IP camera needs about 40-50 gigabytes of traffic in 24hours (and that is at 6 frames per second remeber NOT 30). So if you have 30 cameras then do the math. What kind of servers are you running? Xeon quad cores x8? They would need to be monsters to run 30 cameras (15 each as you say). The cost of the hardware will be sizeable and with 30 cameras requiring 40 gigabytes each equals 1.2 Terrabytes A DAY if I calculate that right (still only 6 frames per second remember), so for an average recorded month, you are going to need two 15 terrabyte servers, which a massive network backplane.. and how much is that going to cost to record VGA/1MP at 6 frames per second? I hope that this is a dedicated CAT5/6 network as you would seriously suffer 'collision city' with packets going over an office shared network. Stick a sniffer on it if this is the case and you havent already.

Anyway, IP cameras are ok if you want lots of pictures at this resolutions but once you try and blow them up they pixelate very quickly and do not offer anything like as much detail. Kind of similar to 255lines resolution from a colour video recorder when compared to 1200 lines that a modern DVR is capable of recording - that's just an analogy. Most of the money in an IP camera is for the webserver inside and not spent on the imager or optics which is whole point of buying a camera. They are, however, very easy to fit (plug and play) and do not require setting up like a true cctv cameras does (white ballance, back/f-stop, etc etc).

'Four convictions' ? Based on admissions from the accused no doubt when told that they have cctv footage I would wager, rather than from the images gained directly from the cctv - the police are good at this. I've never had 4 convictions from one site in the 30 years of supplying professional serveillance equipment (to the home office, banks, hospitals, hotels, etc).

To the OP, if you are serious about recording decent images then you are much better getting a real coaxial camera setup with a proper imager, dedicated DVR with a tapestore. If on the other hand you want plug and play with less image quality and less frames, and maybe a cheaper system then IP is the way to go depending on how many cameras you want.

Some quick points to answer the above:

-Apologies in regards to the co-ax comment I was referring to our current system, which is very old and most likely was bottom-of-the-range at the time. Ultimately, it is not my responsibility. However being in IT I have taken it upon myself to introduce an IP CCTV network, which will be a massive improvement over the system we have. Not a dig at co-ax technology in general mind

-The servers were Intel Xeon and did the job well. The cameras were not high defintion, but VGA. I was based at a secondary school, so money was an issue to a degree. We installed 30 cameras; some on 16frames/sec for entrances and corridors, some on 1frame/sec for classrooms. We had 4 Terabytes of storage. All of this was decided and bought through a specialist and worked!

-As far as I'm aware 4 people were taken to court with the evidence we downloaded from our system and handed to the police. As I was starting my career (I was 17-21 years old at the time), I wouldn't have been open to further information. This is what I was told by Senior Management ...

IMHO, I was quite pleased with Axis network cams and just thought I'd mention that to the OP

[Ikemi]

Lord Flathead ... I agree with your post above - It's a minefield! I don't know enough about co-ax vs. IP! As I said, I'm looking at Axis for my current workplace, but have also been researching Mobotix and Panasonic for IP solutions

[kryten]

Wow - didn't expect such detailed answers! PH is great!

To clarify, this isn't a fully commercial monitoring system so a load of £400+ cameras are out.

I already have servers etc running offsite that the images can be uploaded to, hence the idea of going for an IP based system and I've been looking at cameras ranging from 60quid (in Maplin) to £200ish at several online places (a mate has a Cisco/linksys one that seems to work quite well).

I was really just wondering how anyone rates the cameras that are available under a variety of names, which are obviously just badged chinese clones or whether its worth sticking with an established name (Sony/Cisco/Panasonic etc).

[Lord Flathead]

Ikemi said:

Lord Flathead ... I agree with your post above - It's a minefield! I don't know enough about co-ax vs. IP! As I said, I'm looking at Axis for my current workplace, but have also been researching Mobotix and Panasonic for IP solutions

Firstly, sorry if my post came across as a bit of a rant - it was not intended but here's a bit of background with my company and Axis...

There is always an element of worry for us installers when a new and revolutionery product comes onto the market because after you have been working with the same technology for years it is hard to accept change (a but like harcore vinyl heads versus cd/mp3).

I should mention that Axis were the first main-stay business to launch networked IP cameras, and they certainly do know their stuff. When the axis product range launched, myself and 3 of our engineers went along to a one day academy training session to see what the products first hand. TBH, We saw their different products as a bit of a threat to installers as people with IT skills could install a system (can you see why the innocent post touched a nerve?) but had no knowledge of actual security systems, how they work, what the important fundamentals are, and also have no knowledge of the underhanded way in which villans try to defeat systems... Here was a system which a corporate IT department could send a few qualified Admins to, and show them how to integrate CCTV over CAT5.. where would we come in? Well we could fit the gear, but other than screwing the thing to the wall and pointing the lense in the right direction, the rest of the job was IT. So rather than embrace the new technology, we shunned it

I still believe that the IP systems are not there quite yet, but in a few years they may well be The bandwidth concern is a very real one, as I am sure you will understand - currently it is what causes the glitching in the systems when you play back recorded material - don't forget the DVR side of it is able to record/playback/view all at the same time so if you are viewing by remote network you have just doubled your bandwidth again...

Back on topic; the Pany's are very good - everything the Matsush ita Electric company bangs out is decent stuff, and these would get a from me - purely on previous experience - they just don't go wrong - ever. Personaly on a camera system which only requires a couple of cameras, an IP solution would work fine as long as you can live with the resolution and frame-rate.

For a 30 camera install I would definately go conventional as I could install that system for nearly half as much as a like for like IP system plus it has no bottlenecks

kryten said:

Wow - didn't expect such detailed answers! PH is great!

To clarify, this isn't a fully commercial monitoring system so a load of £400+ cameras are out.

I already have servers etc running offsite that the images can be uploaded to, hence the idea of going for an IP based system and I've been looking at cameras ranging from 60quid (in Maplin) to £200ish at several online places (a mate has a Cisco/linksys one that seems to work quite well).

I was really just wondering how anyone rates the cameras that are available under a variety of names, which are obviously just badged chinese clones or whether its worth sticking with an established name (Sony/Cisco/Panasonic etc).

I wouldn't touch anything camera wise from Maplins personaly, just as you wouldn't/shouldn't trust a DIY shop to sell you a burglar alarm - go to a professional specialised installer if you're serious about security. Try henrys cctv, they always have decent imported gear plus its in the uk so you don't have to post it back to China when it breaks

Do look out for CCD image sensors and a third inch CCD is a better image than a quarter inch CCD.

Do not buy a CMOS camera, they are poor quality imagers and will give awful results when it is dark.

Finally, try and stick to RJ45 cable connections, do not use wirless if possible. Wireless 2.4Ghz is easily jammable plus anyone with a standard receiver can watch your pictures and see where the camera doesn't cover then they will be in. As for 802.11b/g etc, range is often a problem and the signal drops frequently as users of Wifi will testify. It's frequency is also subject to being attacked by a knowledgeable Cisco engineer, as they can program certain Cisco AP's to respond to a threat by jamming that frequency (there are posts on both security installer forums and also the Register). These alone were enough reason for us 'doubters' to carry on with what we know, although if you use CAT5 on a dedicated CCTV network it IS for all intensive purposes; CLOSED CIRCUIT, subject to a decent firewall from other networks..

Good luck and if I can help please PM for details as not all things security should be discussed on a public forum

[Alex106]

Ive set one up for my dad purely to watch the driveway. It was a Panasonic one but i dont remember the model number, its rather good, as you can set it to either take photos every few seconds, or stream continuous video all the time or then set it to only film when it detects movement, ie when a car/people walk on the driveway.

The angle of the lense is more than wide enough to reach across the driveway and onto the road, spanning a gap which will fit three cars in easily, one being an RRS.


Fairly simple to set up, i had a touch of bother with a IP address setting intially but once i got the camera to identify the router all was loveeely.

Good luck, obviously if you have any questions someone on PH is bound to know the answer.

[kryten]

Yep all fair points. I d know about the CCD/CMOS from my astro photography and I reckon one of my astro CCDs would make a pretty good low-light CCTV camera

(In fact one of my first ones was actually, in effect, a modified low light CCTV camera!)

Onto specifics then - anyone used the Linksys (Cisco) PVC2300?

Not cheap but I'd guess they're pretty well made. Only thing is there's no IR flood option with it.

[kryten]

Hmmm, sudden thought - do the IR LEDs (either the ones on a camera or the external 'flood LEDs') that allow full nightvision affect the PIR sensors for alarm systems?

[10 Pence Short]

It's like anything else in life- you get what you pay for.

A £200 system including a couple of IP cameras and a cheap purpose built PC/software is not going to be in the same league as a dedicated, ground up designed IP camera and DVR solution.

I used to work for a division of 360 Vision Technologies (the brains who jumped ship from VCL) who adopted IP quite early. The quality of the product is not as per the picture painted earlier in this thread, though it would be wrong to assume newer is always better; the quality of the camera is the important bit well before the transmission method and control protocol is decided.


For night time use there really isn't any substitute for exterior lighting to accompany the camera. Everything else is a big compromise unless you're willing to spend decent money.

[kryten]

10 Pence Short said:

A £200 system including a couple of IP cameras and a cheap purpose built PC/software is not going to be in the same league as a dedicated, ground up designed IP camera and DVR solution.

Well, yeah, for 200 quid I guess you're right.

But assuming you're spending a bit more than the minimum on cameras (150-200quid each) then I'm still unsure what a system installed by a professional will give you over a home install system?

By that I mean that its now relatively simple to put together system that can transmit the footage offsite and send alerts via email/text (or even a voicedialler) when movement is detected at certain times. I'm not saying a 'pro' system isn't worth it - just struggling to figure out what you get for the cash?

(Though I assume they'd know if it will interfere with alarm PIRs, which I do not!)

[padgett]

tegwin said:

We just upgraded our securitty camera system... all of the old cameras they took out were IP network cameras..

I have one on my desk which I am setting up to broadcast a photo every 1 min to our weatehrstation page.....

Its an axis 2120.... Pretty good camera... They have a big range of cameras.

any old ones for sale?

[kryten]

OK, need to make a decision on this. Three cameras - one to cover outside and two inside (one office, one garage space).

Any suggestions for where's a good place to buy the cameras (happy to pay 200ish ex-VAT for each) or do I just google and take a punt on what I find...?