From PHP to Java

[essayer]

Aim: to do contract Java work

Currently I do contract PHP work which is OK, but nothing special. Java rates are easily 1.5x-2x what I get paid. On that basis it seems to be well worth me taking the time to get up to speed with Java.

Only downside is the total lack of commercial experience (I already know Java basics but haven't used it in a structured environment since University).

Anyone made a similar move?

[The Excession]

essayer said:

Anyone made a similar move?

Nope.

However, are you asking about Java - as in a server side process, or JavaScript which is client side?

For me PHP and JavaScript go hand in hand, I find it difficult to see how in this day and age of web apps and Ajax that you can't be using both together.

It's the only method (out side of HTML forms) of passing server side variables to the browser in order to have them acted upon client side and then returned back to the server for further PHP/Database processing.

Or, are you asking about 'pure' Java and is that running client side or server side (I keep asking as you mentioned PHP - so I assume you are doing web app work).

Also, what do you mean by 'structured programming'? Having never been to Uni I don't know what that 'really' means. However I have 15 years of programming experience so likely this could be an interesting thread.

Perhaps you could explain a little more about what you are doing and where you want to go - it would be easier.

[The requirement spec is weak in this post]

As for server side stuff - have you considered Ruby? (Seems to be all the rage these days)

[Chris_OCR]

I presume the OP means Java,

As you say JavaScript and PHP go hand in hand.

[dern]

Without going in to too much detail... If you replace the php code in your web page with java and call it a java server page then that's the easiest progression from php to java I guess. This model 1 style is rarely used commercially though and if you want to move to java web application development then you want to be looking at model 2 (model view controller design pattern) using some kind of framework like struts or spring mvc possibly.

I taught myself enough php to do a forum a lot like this one in a week or two but I've been doing Java development for 12 years and am still learning new components as they come along and new ways of doing things. It's this relative complexity that affects the rate.

Fortunately there are many people doing it who are lazy and useless which makes anyone who works at it shine

Unfortunately I would suggest that getting that first contract without any commercial experience would be tricky and you'll have to go in very cheap.

[essayer]

[Structured, as in a commercial environment, and not "oh just rig up this site however you want get on with it"]

I code PHP to a good standard and have a good awareness of MVC, OOP etc. So the concepts should be transferable, if the experience isn't.

I'm going through job specs to see what sort of stuff comes up a lot, but don't want to spread too thin. Java experience is limited to two courses at uni (when Java was pretty new) so I am happy to take on junior roles to get into it, I'd imagine the payback is there eventually.

[130R]

essayer said:

Aim: to do contract Java work

Not going to happen without commercial experience I'm afraid. I'd look at getting a permanent position then move into contracting, if you still want to, in the future.

[ChrisMCoupe]

130R said:

essayer said:

Aim: to do contract Java work

Not going to happen without commercial experience I'm afraid. I'd look at getting a permanent position then move into contracting, if you still want to, in the future.

Sadly 130R is right, you wont be able to become a Java contractor without commercial experience. Contractors by their very nature come into an environment as an experienced professional to do a job, not to learn a trade.

It might be worth doing a few certifications and looking for perminant work for a couple of years before attempting contracting. 5+ years commercial experience is when you will be looking at the tasty contracting salaries though.

[The Excession]

essayer said:

[Structured, as in a commercial environment, and not "oh just rig up this site however you want get on with it"]

I code PHP to a good standard and have a good awareness of MVC, OOP etc. So the concepts should be transferable, if the experience isn't.

I'm going through job specs to see what sort of stuff comes up a lot, but don't want to spread too thin. Java experience is limited to two courses at uni (when Java was pretty new) so I am happy to take on junior roles to get into it, I'd imagine the payback is there eventually.

You see, (or perhaps not? - PHP just writes stuff that lands on the browser, and yes of course itcan flip a few bits in the database. Secondly I've not idea what a good standard of PHP is.

Next point, 'spread too thin' WTF? How can you spread too thin coding PHP and JavaScript? You either know what can be done or you don't. Now, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but, can you get PHP to inject JavaScript into a webpage such that the JavaScript will return information back to the server that will be re-injected as JavaScript back into the page that the client receives?

Can you load a page (with HTML forms for eaxample) POST the results back to the server and then have new form appear at the client based upon the information that was sent to a PHP page that then writes a completely new page of HTML and embedded JScript back to the client such that the next request is governed by the first request?

Can you update the contents of a Div or Table Cell based upon the click of a user where the request is sent via AJAX processed by PHP and then returned to the browser as JavaScript which renders the new info into that Div or Table such that screen in front of the user has NOT been changed (in front of their eyes)?

It's easy once you've done it once or twice. Oh

[dern]

ChrisMCoupe said:

130R said:

essayer said:

Aim: to do contract Java work

Not going to happen without commercial experience I'm afraid. I'd look at getting a permanent position then move into contracting, if you still want to, in the future.

Sadly 130R is right, you wont be able to become a Java contractor without commercial experience. Contractors by their very nature come into an environment as an experienced professional to do a job, not to learn a trade.

I agree to a point with this in that it's very hard to get a new contract with no commercial experience but it is possible to learn new skills within an existing contract. I learned Java this way and subsequently got an opportunity to do a years .net/c#... both mid-contract.

Maybe a way in would be to do some courses as suggested and then look for a contract which requires both the java that you will have (by then) certification in and some skill that you have commercial experience in.

Edited by dern on Tuesday 23 February 14:48

[The Excession]

essayer said:

(when Java was pretty new) so I am happy to take on junior roles to get into it,

Did I forget to say? fk Junior Roles.

Seriously, fk them.

Read some books, ask questions on forums, practice, play with the systems that are available.

Do it. Struggle, try harder, learn about the technology - once you've made one AJAX request you've made them all.

But NEVER be happy to take on a junior role (You'd be surprised how thick some people are in the world of WEB/HTML/AJAX - it won't take you too long to excell beyond your peers if you put a bit of effort in).

[ChrisMCoupe]

dern said:

I agree to a point with this in that it's very hard to get a new contract with no commercial experience but it is possible to learn new skills within an existing contract. I learned Java this way and subsequently got an opportunity to do a years .net/c#... both mid-contract.

Sorry I guess I didn't quite make my point. What I meant was that you wont get a contracting job asking for specific Java skills with zero work experience. You can of course however learn new skills on the job and this is the best way to keep up to date with the relevant technologies.

[The Excession]

dern said:

ChrisMCoupe said:

130R said:

essayer said:

Aim: to do contract Java work

Not going to happen without commercial experience I'm afraid. I'd look at getting a permanent position then move into contracting, if you still want to, in the future.

Sadly 130R is right, you wont be able to become a Java contractor without commercial experience. Contractors by their very nature come into an environment as an experienced professional to do a job, not to learn a trade.

I agree to a point with this in that it's very hard to get a new contract with no commercial experience but it is possible to learn new skills within an existing contract. I learned Java this way and subsequently got an opportunity to do a years .net/c#... both mid-contract.

Maybe a way in would be to do some courses as suggested and then look for a contract which requires both the java that you will have (by then) certification in and some skill that you have commercial experience in.

Edited by dern on Tuesday 23 February 14:48

I agree to a point as well, but seriously, if you were looking to hire, and a trainee came in and said 'Please sir can I show you this?' and then went on to demonstrate his own website where you were posting info back and forth and also using HTLM forms and JacaScript and AJAX.

Wouldn't you be a bit more inclined to take the candidate seriously?

[dern]

ChrisMCoupe said:

dern said:

I agree to a point with this in that it's very hard to get a new contract with no commercial experience but it is possible to learn new skills within an existing contract. I learned Java this way and subsequently got an opportunity to do a years .net/c#... both mid-contract.

Sorry I guess I didn't quite make my point. What I meant was that you wont get a contracting job asking for specific Java skills with zero work experience. You can of course however learn new skills on the job and this is the best way to keep up to date with the relevant technologies.

I agree, I was suggesting a way forward though so that he can become a java contractor if he wants.

[essayer]

Yeah, happy to take on a perm role while I learn it to a good enough standard to do contract work. I realise I'd have no chance of getting a contract gig with no real commercial experience - especially in this market - even if I somehow smuggled it into my current CV.

PHP just doesn't command high rates at all. I just don't see any point spending x more years of life contracting at PHP rates when I could [theoretically] retrain and earn a much higher amount in a relatively short period of time. In for a penny in for a pound and all that

[cs02rm0]

Java, or at least JEE, is a world away from PHP. How is your Java at the moment?

[ChrisMCoupe]

cs02rm0 said:

Java, or at least JEE, is a world away from PHP. How is your Java at the moment?

Completely agree, which is why it can command a much higher contract rate.

Java/JEE itself can cover a vast area of expertise. Start looking at Spring, Hibernate, JPA, EJB3, JSF etc and you will realise there is a lot to learn, and of course using these technologies in a real world environment and knowing how best to apply them is what makes a good developer.

OP I'm not trying to scare you off, just giving you some kind of idea what knowledge you will need before going contracting. Definitely look for a perminant role which will possibly bridge both PHP and Java and try to go from there.

[Accelebrate]

The Excession said:

You see, (or perhaps not? - PHP just writes stuff that lands on the browser, and yes of course itcan flip a few bits in the database. Secondly I've not idea what a good standard of PHP is.

Next point, 'spread too thin' WTF? How can you spread too thin coding PHP and JavaScript? You either know what can be done or you don't. Now, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but, can you get PHP to inject JavaScript into a webpage such that the JavaScript will return information back to the server that will be re-injected as JavaScript back into the page that the client receives?

Can you load a page (with HTML forms for eaxample) POST the results back to the server and then have new form appear at the client based upon the information that was sent to a PHP page that then writes a completely new page of HTML and embedded JScript back to the client such that the next request is governed by the first request?

Can you update the contents of a Div or Table Cell based upon the click of a user where the request is sent via AJAX processed by PHP and then returned to the browser as JavaScript which renders the new info into that Div or Table such that screen in front of the user has NOT been changed (in front of their eyes)?

It's easy once you've done it once or twice. Oh

Have you been drinking? I think it's been well established that we're talking about Java, and not a beginners guide to Javascript/AJAX.

How's your PHP work going OP? If you're not too busy why not start mastering Java in your spare time, you might find it easier to get your first Java contract if you can sound reasonably knowledgeable when quizzed.

[dern]

Accelebrate said:

Have you been drinking?

The same question crossed my mind

[dilbert]

The Excession said:

It's the only method (out side of HTML forms) of passing server side variables to the browser in order to have them acted upon client side and then returned back to the server for further PHP/Database processing.

This isn't true.

No-one would rate me because I have no experience. That said, I did contemplate building a java core for an FPGA, before PicoJava was offered by Sun in silicon. I still have the JVM spec somewhere!

The problem for me is that no-one has heard of PicoJava, less still FPGAs.

I can think of at least two other ways, and I'm fairly sure there are more still.

To the OP... Stick to it, where there's a will and all that!

I think employers may want people who aren't so hot. It means that they don't get solutions that are quite so versatile. As I am learning, a huge part of marketing, is selling something people understand. Selling something that people don't understand can be more valuable, but is certainly more difficult. Customers often don't like to think.

My own take, is that people should achieve all they have in them. Sadly it's not very profitable.

Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 23 February 17:18

[The Excession]

dern said:

Accelebrate said:

Have you been drinking?

The same question crossed my mind

Yes...

Next question.