Apple sues HTC over phone patents
Discussion
The fun begins!
Wonder what all the details are- hope not multi touch as that was invented elsewhere and apple saw a good thing.
Apple lawyers will be earning ovetime though since they aready being sued & countersuing Nokia!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8545976.stm
Wonder what all the details are- hope not multi touch as that was invented elsewhere and apple saw a good thing.
Apple lawyers will be earning ovetime though since they aready being sued & countersuing Nokia!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8545976.stm
grumbledoak said:
Given how Apple's original 'invention' was to steal Zerox's ideas, Jobs really does have some front.
No doubt it'll be counter-sued and end up as cross-licensing.
What did the Apple I, II and III have to do with Xerox PARC's ideas? What Job's saw at Xerox PARC was not an OS anyway. It was a development environment for the SmallTalk programming language.No doubt it'll be counter-sued and end up as cross-licensing.
grumbledoak said:
Jobs took the WIMP concepts from Xerox, and made a very good job of using them. But he did then sue MS for doing the same, as if they had copied from him.
Anyway, I'm too tired for a religeous war- this will end up in patent sharing as they normally do.
Some of who's employees previously worked at Stanford Research Institute. The whole concept was the brain child of Douglas Engelbart. He's the bloke who invented the mouse.Anyway, I'm too tired for a religeous war- this will end up in patent sharing as they normally do.
Why am I not surprised? Well, it may be because I've switched from an iPhone to a Nexus One, and the browser *feels* absolutely *identical* to the iPhone's browser. Of course, this is because it is pretty much using the same code, and the same hardware.
Open source cuts both ways, Apple.
Apple really don't need to sue HTC - I guess it's the 'done thing' in American corporations and I doubt Jobs was behind this with his usual fervour. The Nexus One is simply not as polished as the iPhone, nowhere near. It's a hacker's phone, not a 'smartphone for the rest of us' which Apple have *always* striven to be providers of - technology for the non-geek (which is why it's deliciously ironic that so many geeks have jumped on the Apple bandwagon because OS X, whilst a 'system for the rest of us', is quite undeniably a geek's wet dream at heart).
I can live with the limitations because I've got a seriously bad case of cognitive dissonance with Apple - on the one hand I'm one of their biggest fans (software, operating system architecture, user interface design, hardware industrial design, all best in class IMO), but on the other hand I despise their control-freakery and the way they've handled the iPhone. It *really* grates. I spent a LOT of time hacking the iPhone and thoroughly enjoyed it at the time... but equally IIRC I was out of work and had time to spare, and it was a new world (a real Unix phone, at last). Once I'd done it once, Apple constantly releasing patches to stop you owning your own device (plus the preposterous 'exclusive' carrier deals) *really* pissed me off. Now I'm fortunate in the sense that I could simply say 'f
k the money' and just buy factory-unlocked phones at stupid prices, to continue to enjoy the iPhone experience but *on my terms*. If I earned less money then I'd have had to move to an inferior platform (probably Android, to be honest, since the dream that was OpenMoko never happened).
Now Android handsets and the platform itself are *just* good enough, but they're NOWHERE near as polished as the iPhone. Well, the hardware is better IMO - I'm basing this on a sample of one (my Nexus One) but HTC make rather lovely kit. The Android platform feels beta as hell though, compared to the iPhone ecosystem. Even the crappest iPhone apps put together by a non-developer feel better than the vast majority of Android apps... I haven't had any free time to have a go myself (and I desperately need a Bloomberg app for my Nexus One so if I had the time, I'd write one myself) so I have no idea whether it's because the SDK is rubbish, the actual GUI object framework is duff, or whether the documentation is typically-Google and never finished. If Apple do anything well, it's OO frameworks, GUI eye-candy, and sheer *ease of development*. Developing an iPhone app is a piece of cake, and using all of the built-in eye-candy is trivial. If you have to hand-code anything on Android then *that's* why the iPhone apps all look so polished.
Rant over - this is why Apple don't need to sue anyone just yet. Especially since Apple don't make hardware any more... and an iPhone made by HTC would be an iPhone geek's wet dream... the iPhone system running on the Nexus One hardware would be utterly awesome. I don't think Apple ought to get on bad terms with HTC - yeah, they may look to be 'competitors' but if Apple offered HTC an OEM contract to build iPhones then I'm *sure* they'd bite Apple's arm off. Apple sell BIG volumes of smartphones and even HTC's control of the WinMo market ought to be comparable if not smaller in size to Apple's marketshare... (anyone got any real numbers to confirm or refute that comment?)
Of course, Apple don't like OEMs telling them how to design their hardware, so there'd be some culture clash there, but the potential is superb. Again, I posit the simple idea - iPhone OS running on the Nexus One hardware. Apart from the 4 'soft buttons' at the bottom of the screen (which are unresponsive and annoyingly bad design anyway), the phone is simple and minimalist, like Jobs insists on. The trackball with integrated pulsing light may not be Jobsian, but they had one on the Mighty Mouse. And the *single* BIG issue with the iPhone - moving around text fields on web pages and *especially* scrolling *within* them - is wiped out by the scrollball. HTC make the device look like a single-piece unit as per the iPhone, but the back comes off (proper materials too, unlike the iPhone), the battery is replaceable, and the SIM card is internally protected. There's even expandable storage in the form of a microSD card slot. It's fking brilliant and it'd make an awesome iPhone. Google even sell it a LOT cheaper than a SIM-free iPhone, though I wouldn't be surprised if Google's margins on the Nx1 are wafer-thin and the hardware BOM cost is higher than the iPhone 3GS... Apple like BIG margins, cheap suppliers, and because their retail prices are high doesn't mean their BOM is similarly expensive... it's often filled with *very* cheap components to make them money...
This may simply be due to Google standing up to Apple and reneging on the multi-touch browser agreement (Apple originally asked Google to ship the Nx1 without multi-touch (in its simplest form, pinch-zoom on the browser) and Google apparently said 'OK then' - a month later, a software update enabled it again and the Nx1 browser operates almost identically to the iPhone browser). But I don't think Apple actually hold a watertight patent on 'multi-touch' - or on capacitive touchscreens, for that matter. Yes, Apple have a big, well funded legal team - and billions of cash in the bank to spare, but HTC aren't small and Google will *have* to be involved at some point as it's the Nexus One that Apple are *really* talking about. And Google are one of the few tech gorillas who could take on Apple if they wanted a fight - the usual American legal process means 'who has the deepest pockets and can pay lawyers for longest wins' which is hardly justice... but Google aren't a small act that can be intimidated by Apple's muscle. Apple's market cap passed Google's last year in shouty headlines but a more recent article puts Google's 'enterprise value' at $165 billion vs Apple's EV of $154 billion. Apple have more liquidity but there's no way the two companies will fight to the death (hell, they're mates after all, it's only recently that there was a Google non-exec on Apple's board).
If anything, it's more likely to be just a stalling tactic. Android is behind the iPhone version of OS X, and Android apps are less polished, and the iPhone ecosystem is both more mature and easier to use. However Android is open-source and catching up rapidly. Apple presumably would rather Android catch up a lot more slowly... and legal BS is a good way of slowing progress down.
Bah humbug to Apple, then
Everyone loses.
Open source cuts both ways, Apple.
Apple really don't need to sue HTC - I guess it's the 'done thing' in American corporations and I doubt Jobs was behind this with his usual fervour. The Nexus One is simply not as polished as the iPhone, nowhere near. It's a hacker's phone, not a 'smartphone for the rest of us' which Apple have *always* striven to be providers of - technology for the non-geek (which is why it's deliciously ironic that so many geeks have jumped on the Apple bandwagon because OS X, whilst a 'system for the rest of us', is quite undeniably a geek's wet dream at heart).
I can live with the limitations because I've got a seriously bad case of cognitive dissonance with Apple - on the one hand I'm one of their biggest fans (software, operating system architecture, user interface design, hardware industrial design, all best in class IMO), but on the other hand I despise their control-freakery and the way they've handled the iPhone. It *really* grates. I spent a LOT of time hacking the iPhone and thoroughly enjoyed it at the time... but equally IIRC I was out of work and had time to spare, and it was a new world (a real Unix phone, at last). Once I'd done it once, Apple constantly releasing patches to stop you owning your own device (plus the preposterous 'exclusive' carrier deals) *really* pissed me off. Now I'm fortunate in the sense that I could simply say 'f
k the money' and just buy factory-unlocked phones at stupid prices, to continue to enjoy the iPhone experience but *on my terms*. If I earned less money then I'd have had to move to an inferior platform (probably Android, to be honest, since the dream that was OpenMoko never happened).Now Android handsets and the platform itself are *just* good enough, but they're NOWHERE near as polished as the iPhone. Well, the hardware is better IMO - I'm basing this on a sample of one (my Nexus One) but HTC make rather lovely kit. The Android platform feels beta as hell though, compared to the iPhone ecosystem. Even the crappest iPhone apps put together by a non-developer feel better than the vast majority of Android apps... I haven't had any free time to have a go myself (and I desperately need a Bloomberg app for my Nexus One so if I had the time, I'd write one myself) so I have no idea whether it's because the SDK is rubbish, the actual GUI object framework is duff, or whether the documentation is typically-Google and never finished. If Apple do anything well, it's OO frameworks, GUI eye-candy, and sheer *ease of development*. Developing an iPhone app is a piece of cake, and using all of the built-in eye-candy is trivial. If you have to hand-code anything on Android then *that's* why the iPhone apps all look so polished.
Rant over - this is why Apple don't need to sue anyone just yet. Especially since Apple don't make hardware any more... and an iPhone made by HTC would be an iPhone geek's wet dream... the iPhone system running on the Nexus One hardware would be utterly awesome. I don't think Apple ought to get on bad terms with HTC - yeah, they may look to be 'competitors' but if Apple offered HTC an OEM contract to build iPhones then I'm *sure* they'd bite Apple's arm off. Apple sell BIG volumes of smartphones and even HTC's control of the WinMo market ought to be comparable if not smaller in size to Apple's marketshare... (anyone got any real numbers to confirm or refute that comment?)
Of course, Apple don't like OEMs telling them how to design their hardware, so there'd be some culture clash there, but the potential is superb. Again, I posit the simple idea - iPhone OS running on the Nexus One hardware. Apart from the 4 'soft buttons' at the bottom of the screen (which are unresponsive and annoyingly bad design anyway), the phone is simple and minimalist, like Jobs insists on. The trackball with integrated pulsing light may not be Jobsian, but they had one on the Mighty Mouse. And the *single* BIG issue with the iPhone - moving around text fields on web pages and *especially* scrolling *within* them - is wiped out by the scrollball. HTC make the device look like a single-piece unit as per the iPhone, but the back comes off (proper materials too, unlike the iPhone), the battery is replaceable, and the SIM card is internally protected. There's even expandable storage in the form of a microSD card slot. It's f
king brilliant and it'd make an awesome iPhone. Google even sell it a LOT cheaper than a SIM-free iPhone, though I wouldn't be surprised if Google's margins on the Nx1 are wafer-thin and the hardware BOM cost is higher than the iPhone 3GS... Apple like BIG margins, cheap suppliers, and because their retail prices are high doesn't mean their BOM is similarly expensive... it's often filled with *very* cheap components to make them money...This may simply be due to Google standing up to Apple and reneging on the multi-touch browser agreement (Apple originally asked Google to ship the Nx1 without multi-touch (in its simplest form, pinch-zoom on the browser) and Google apparently said 'OK then' - a month later, a software update enabled it again and the Nx1 browser operates almost identically to the iPhone browser). But I don't think Apple actually hold a watertight patent on 'multi-touch' - or on capacitive touchscreens, for that matter. Yes, Apple have a big, well funded legal team - and billions of cash in the bank to spare, but HTC aren't small and Google will *have* to be involved at some point as it's the Nexus One that Apple are *really* talking about. And Google are one of the few tech gorillas who could take on Apple if they wanted a fight - the usual American legal process means 'who has the deepest pockets and can pay lawyers for longest wins' which is hardly justice... but Google aren't a small act that can be intimidated by Apple's muscle. Apple's market cap passed Google's last year in shouty headlines but a more recent article puts Google's 'enterprise value' at $165 billion vs Apple's EV of $154 billion. Apple have more liquidity but there's no way the two companies will fight to the death (hell, they're mates after all, it's only recently that there was a Google non-exec on Apple's board).
If anything, it's more likely to be just a stalling tactic. Android is behind the iPhone version of OS X, and Android apps are less polished, and the iPhone ecosystem is both more mature and easier to use. However Android is open-source and catching up rapidly. Apple presumably would rather Android catch up a lot more slowly... and legal BS is a good way of slowing progress down.
Bah humbug to Apple, then
Everyone loses.I'm pretty ropey on US patent law, but as I understand it, this is likely a move to protect existing patents, and show that Apple is actively defending them, to ensure they remain in effect.
No way would they pick Google, as it's too big and linked to Apple. Palm on the other hand is too small, plus I can't see Apple moving against on Rubinstein.
HTC is right in the middle, and as a SW and HW dev it makes the ideal all in one target, especially as Apple seems to have no ties to it at all.
No way would they pick Google, as it's too big and linked to Apple. Palm on the other hand is too small, plus I can't see Apple moving against on Rubinstein.
HTC is right in the middle, and as a SW and HW dev it makes the ideal all in one target, especially as Apple seems to have no ties to it at all.
cyberface said:
lots of things plus:
Rant over - this is why Apple don't need to sue anyone just yet. Especially since Apple don't make hardware any more... and an iPhone made by HTC would be an iPhone geek's wet dream... the iPhone system running on the Nexus One hardware would be utterly awesome. I don't think Apple ought to get on bad terms with HTC - yeah, they may look to be 'competitors' but if Apple offered HTC an OEM contract to build iPhones then I'm *sure* they'd bite Apple's arm off. Apple sell BIG volumes of smartphones and even HTC's control of the WinMo market ought to be comparable if not smaller in size to Apple's marketshare... (anyone got any real numbers to confirm or refute that comment?)
there are some figures here which are interesting - http://www.gsmarena.com/2009_world_handset_sales_r...Rant over - this is why Apple don't need to sue anyone just yet. Especially since Apple don't make hardware any more... and an iPhone made by HTC would be an iPhone geek's wet dream... the iPhone system running on the Nexus One hardware would be utterly awesome. I don't think Apple ought to get on bad terms with HTC - yeah, they may look to be 'competitors' but if Apple offered HTC an OEM contract to build iPhones then I'm *sure* they'd bite Apple's arm off. Apple sell BIG volumes of smartphones and even HTC's control of the WinMo market ought to be comparable if not smaller in size to Apple's marketshare... (anyone got any real numbers to confirm or refute that comment?)
My main gripe with Apple is also their control freakery, it is the main reason why I will almost certainly get an Android phone shortly.
Control freaks or not - I would expect any public company to vigorously defend their patents. If they have applied and gained patents that are not quite accurate then shame on the US Patent office. But these are commercial advantages that need to be defended.
I work for a company that produces some very advanced software and it hinges around some key bits of functionality that has a number of patents. We have a new version coming out soon and we need to protect any new features very carefully. The value of the company I work for is approaching a billion dollars and the market is over 2 billion in size - there is a lot of money in it for us to make sure we don't let our hard developed features and functionality to be taken by a competitor. Our share holders would not be happy....
I would expect that any company in a competitive situation would do their best to defend themselves. US patent rules are a lot different to ours and so is the way they are handled. Maybe we need to compare like for like and not necessarily use our rules and expectations to apply to this?
Just being devils advocate so don't shoot me - I don't know the details behind the Apple patents, but just putting an alternative view across.
I work for a company that produces some very advanced software and it hinges around some key bits of functionality that has a number of patents. We have a new version coming out soon and we need to protect any new features very carefully. The value of the company I work for is approaching a billion dollars and the market is over 2 billion in size - there is a lot of money in it for us to make sure we don't let our hard developed features and functionality to be taken by a competitor. Our share holders would not be happy....
I would expect that any company in a competitive situation would do their best to defend themselves. US patent rules are a lot different to ours and so is the way they are handled. Maybe we need to compare like for like and not necessarily use our rules and expectations to apply to this?
Just being devils advocate so don't shoot me - I don't know the details behind the Apple patents, but just putting an alternative view across.
grumbledoak said:
Jobs took the WIMP concepts from Xerox, and made a very good job of using them. But he did then sue MS for doing the same, as if they had copied from him.
Anyway, I'm too tired for a religeous war- this will end up in patent sharing as they normally do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._...Anyway, I'm too tired for a religeous war- this will end up in patent sharing as they normally do.
apple sues MS and Xerox sues apple...
Beefmeister said:
The thing is, Apple probably don't really care that HTC stole some ideas, as they're never going to bother them in the marketplace.
Apple have sold nearly 43 MILLION iPhones since launch.
Read that again - 43,000,000 iPhones.
Christ on a floating bike.
Are you having a laugh?Apple have sold nearly 43 MILLION iPhones since launch.
Read that again - 43,000,000 iPhones.
Christ on a floating bike.
HTC's mobile market share is double that of Apple's.
Gassing Station | Computers, Gadgets & Stuff | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff