190E 2.3-16 vs. 2.5-16
Discussion
I've got a 2.5-16v, from what I understand it's slightly torquier than the 2.3, and you don't have to rev it as hard to make some decent progress, however believe me, it is still VERY willing to wind round to the redline. I had to replace the SLS rear dampers on mine, plus the ASD light was on, and the injection is a bastardised version of the Bosch K-Jetronic system, and it can be hard to find someone to fix it if it goes wrong! AFAIK there aren't many other major problems with them!
They are somewhat different cars.
For starters the 2.5's have somewhere between approx 15-27bhp more (depending on right or left hand drive & cat equiped or not, from 177bhp U.S version 2.3 to 204bhp non cat 2.5)and a better low down pull which makes for a better daily driver imo, also the 2.5 is alround quicker and a genuine 145mph + top speed. The 2.3 has a shorter stroke engine but the 2.5 is a short stroke engine in it's own right too, bore size are the same. Both inlet & exhaust manifolds, throttle body, valve sizes & valve lift, timing chain (double on the 2.5) etc, all differ from the 2.3, including the cranks, only four counter weights on the 2.5 compared to eight on the 2.3, the actual blocks differ too from what I understand, the 2.5 is a stronger unit. Both are very sweet engines,it been said there're actually sweeter than the BMW E30 M3 unit.
Other differences: 2.5's only came in the face lifted 190E from '88 on, with four colour choices rather than the 2.3's two, Blue/Black being popular. The 2.5's also had ASD as standard rather than the 2.3's basic LSD. Some very late('88) 2.3's had an ASD.
Air con, full leather, heated seats, elec op seats, radio/stereo, alarm, etc were all options, with 2.5's tending to be better spec'ed from new than 2.3's. Half leather has far better grip. The last of the 2.5's retailed just shy of £40k fully spec'ed.
A fact worth taking into account is that only approx 5700 2.5's were produced against approx 19500 2.3's. The 2.5 is actually a rare enough car.
As for buying one or the other, the 2.5 is my choice BUT as always buy on condition, I'd much prefer a good 2.3 than a poor 2.5. Also some prefer the nature of the shorter stoke 2.3's engine even with less power. After driving very good examples of both I opted a well equiped two owner 2.5 and have no regrets even after nearly 60,000 very hard miles in three years the car never left me stranded other than when I snapped a driver shaft on some rally stage type of roads with a hump backed bridge and going some! Preventive maintenance is the key.
Watch out for rust, worn SLS(rear self levelling system, easy to repair) & incorrect operation of the Bosch KE injection system on all.
Check out www.Mercedes190.co.uk for better detailed info and owners comments etc.
For starters the 2.5's have somewhere between approx 15-27bhp more (depending on right or left hand drive & cat equiped or not, from 177bhp U.S version 2.3 to 204bhp non cat 2.5)and a better low down pull which makes for a better daily driver imo, also the 2.5 is alround quicker and a genuine 145mph + top speed. The 2.3 has a shorter stroke engine but the 2.5 is a short stroke engine in it's own right too, bore size are the same. Both inlet & exhaust manifolds, throttle body, valve sizes & valve lift, timing chain (double on the 2.5) etc, all differ from the 2.3, including the cranks, only four counter weights on the 2.5 compared to eight on the 2.3, the actual blocks differ too from what I understand, the 2.5 is a stronger unit. Both are very sweet engines,it been said there're actually sweeter than the BMW E30 M3 unit.
Other differences: 2.5's only came in the face lifted 190E from '88 on, with four colour choices rather than the 2.3's two, Blue/Black being popular. The 2.5's also had ASD as standard rather than the 2.3's basic LSD. Some very late('88) 2.3's had an ASD.
Air con, full leather, heated seats, elec op seats, radio/stereo, alarm, etc were all options, with 2.5's tending to be better spec'ed from new than 2.3's. Half leather has far better grip. The last of the 2.5's retailed just shy of £40k fully spec'ed.
A fact worth taking into account is that only approx 5700 2.5's were produced against approx 19500 2.3's. The 2.5 is actually a rare enough car.
As for buying one or the other, the 2.5 is my choice BUT as always buy on condition, I'd much prefer a good 2.3 than a poor 2.5. Also some prefer the nature of the shorter stoke 2.3's engine even with less power. After driving very good examples of both I opted a well equiped two owner 2.5 and have no regrets even after nearly 60,000 very hard miles in three years the car never left me stranded other than when I snapped a driver shaft on some rally stage type of roads with a hump backed bridge and going some! Preventive maintenance is the key.
Watch out for rust, worn SLS(rear self levelling system, easy to repair) & incorrect operation of the Bosch KE injection system on all.
Check out www.Mercedes190.co.uk for better detailed info and owners comments etc.
Edited by Johnboy Mac on Tuesday 5th April 18:24
tali1 said:
2.3 from B to E reg(although rare in these prefixes)
2.5 from E to J reg
Limited colours - Black, silver (both)and Almadine Red (2.5)
2.5 about 3 secs quicker to 100
A/c / leather(in black only) , heated seats - cost extras
The 2.3 is B to F and the 2.5 is F to K (I think there is one on a L)2.5 from E to J reg
Limited colours - Black, silver (both)and Almadine Red (2.5)
2.5 about 3 secs quicker to 100
A/c / leather(in black only) , heated seats - cost extras
Anyway like others have said, there is little in it. Just buy the best one you can. Although there were more 2.3's made than the 2.5, it's the 2.3 that's the rarer car in RHD form. Also there are more 2.5's that have been looked after.
A bit of info;
Buying guide for W201 190/190E models 1.8, 2.0 8v, 2.6 12v, 190d 2.0, 2.5 and 2.3/2.5 16v
Bodywork/structural
•Jacking points are a common place to rust, try and get a good look under the car to see if any welding to the front and rear jacking points is needed.
•The boot floor and Boot wells rust here, to check for rust open the boot and get a good look under the spare wheel area, also pull the plastic boot well liners out to see if any welding is needed in the boot well area as these tend to rust because of water sitting in these areas.
•Check the rubber around the boot lock and check the drainage pipes from the sunroof as these disconnect causing water to leak from the rear down into the boot where the water collects in the boot wells.
•If the car you’re buying has a body kit (for example a 16v body kit or AMG etc) try and get a good look around the tops of the arches and inside the lip of the arch and feel for rust and check the general condition of the bottom wings.
•Chrome fender covers are rust hiders and can cause more damage as they trap dirt and water which will erode the arch, make sure there is no rust present on the arches or any bubbles forming.
•Try and get a good look at the inner wings and check all brake pipes and fuel lines for any rust.
•Check all the windscreen seals as these tend to let water in so May need changing.
•It is also a good idea to check the condition of the sunroof seal as water can get if the seal has perished.
•Check for any dings and scraps in the bodywork.
•Check below the rear windscreen as this is a place where rust is found, check for any excessive corrosion.
•Check around the electric aerial. For any rust
•C pillar vents can leak into the boot wells.
•Check around the rear number plate fixing bolts for rust.
•Check around the rear clusters for rust bubbles.
•If a rear spoiler is fitted, check around the bolt holes for rust bubbles.
•SLS check the pipes the run under the car for leaks and check the bottle under the bonnet has fluid in it.
•Also check around the SLS engine pump for leaks...
•Check the shocks are not leaking and make sure there is no knocking as this can be the bushes in the bottom of the shocks/rams...
•Rust underneath the washer reservoir and radiator overflow.
•Check the battery tray for rust/rot...
•Check all the body panels line up correctly and make sure there is an equal amount of gap in each panel.
Drivetrain
•Listen out for any whines in the diff or strange noises.
•Listen out for any knocks from the Drivetrain; this could be the prop discs that need changing.
•Auto box: Smooth gear changes, no knocks or rattles, should change up and down fine S=standard E=Economy
•Manual box= Known to be notchy but should change gear without force, linkages and bushes are known to need changing to sharpen the gear change, this also goes for the close ratio gearbox (getrag) found in the 16v.
•There should be no strange noises or vibrations within the Drivetrain.
•Clunks when switching from forward to reverse gears. Could be flex disc or diff.
•Make sure all the shift points are correct, if not this could be the kick down cable or switch.
Mechanical
•Idle for a 190/190E 1.8-2.0 8v and 2.6 12v 190d 2.0, 2.5 autos should be around 700-800rpm; it should be constant at this and should not be a lumpy tick over.
•For a 16v manual it is around 900-1000rpm tick over, these engines do have a slight rattle known as “cam clutter” listen out on start up from cold if there are any excessive rattle as this could mean the timing chain may need changing.
•Check that the car has been maintained and that the gearbox oil and engine have been changed on a regular basis.
•There should be no hesitations and should pull fine all the way up to redline.
•If the car is not idling correctly this could be a number of thing, IACV (idle air control valve) is a common fault and check for any vacuum/air leaks in the rubber hoses around the injection system.
•On ignition you should he the fuel pump prime, make sure the fuel filter has also been changed within the service history.
•For diesels, if the glow plug light remains OFF when you turn the key to acc position and comes on for 10 seconds or so after you start the engine, this is the control unit telling you at least one glow plug is faulty. They are cheap to replace but 2 of them are very awkward to get to.
•Check for cracks in the plastic thermostat cover.
•If the car has a CAT check for any rattling sound when the car is revved, just sounds all clogged up and car will feel down on power...
•Make sure the fan kicks in at 92C if this does not or its always engaged check the sender…
Handling/suspension
•16 valve: The ride shouldn’t be too firm and shouldn’t bounce, the ride height at the rear should be a few inches from the arch to the tyre, if it sitting too low then there could be a leak in the lines and if its sitting too high then the accumulators may need changing or the valves.
•Sportlines: sit 22mm lower than standard 190/190E’s should be quite firm and handle well on the road.
•190/190E general: Check all the shocks for any leaks and check all springs as they are known to snap make sure there are no knocks coming from the rear of the car.
•Sportlines and 16v’s also have quicker ratio steering boxes, make sue none of the power steering components are not leaking
•Check all ball joints and track rod ends
•Check all springs they are known to snap and make sure the rears are not sagging.
•Make sure thereare no leaks in the ASD or SLS lines if the car is equipped with this, make sure there are also no leaks around the pump area.
Interior
•The condition of the interior should co inside with the mileage, check everything works, the sunroof should slide back and forth fine, is it doesn’t this could be a cog in the motor has stripped or a snapped sunroof cable which draws the sunroof back n forth.
•Check all electric windows work, if there are electric windows check they work, a common fault for these is that they stop working due to breaks in the wire between the pillar and the door also damp and water damage could stop the motors from working.
•16valve: check the lap timer a common problem is that the screen bleeds. Also check OTG in the dash (outside temperature gauge also suffers the same problem).
•Check door cards as these tend to lift away at the top. (These at the rear also suffer water damage if the rain sheet has been removed)
•Check the dashboard for any cracks.
•Check all round the visor area vinyl roof panel for dampness, discolouration and sagging. This suggests a leaking sunroof. Due to the drain arrangement in these cars its possible for them to leak water all down the back of the a pillar covers for years without detection. You may never see any water but the car will always be humid and gradually rotting the carpets.
•The central vents blow fresh air in from outside, don’t let this put you off as it was designed that way, the left and right side vents are the vents that blow warm air.
•When ignition is on make sure that the oil pressure gauge does not move as the engine is not running if it does this suggests a faulty sender or plug on the back of the clocks, the oil pressure gauge should only move when the engine is running.
•To adjust the clock push the right needle in and turn at the same time to will allow you to adjust the clock.
•To reset the trip meter (only whilst at stand still, do not to this in motion) push the left side needle in.
My 2.5-16;
Edited by Nath88n on Thursday 31st March 20:40
Nath88n said:
tali1 said:
2.3 from B to E reg(although rare in these prefixes)
2.5 from E to J reg
Limited colours - Black, silver (both)and Almadine Red (2.5)
2.5 about 3 secs quicker to 100
A/c / leather(in black only) , heated seats - cost extras
The 2.3 is B to F and the 2.5 is F to K (I think there is one on a L)2.5 from E to J reg
Limited colours - Black, silver (both)and Almadine Red (2.5)
2.5 about 3 secs quicker to 100
A/c / leather(in black only) , heated seats - cost extras
•
Edited by Nath88n on Thursday 31st March 20:40
190 in general are rare on L reg- but i have never ever seen even a K reg 2.5- let alone a L reg -although oddly i know of a M reg gold bodykitted 2.6 which was advertised as last 190 sold in UK
richard300 said:
Am i right in thinking that premature failure of timing chain/tensioner can be an issue on 2.3's?
I would have to have a 2.5...... But only because it would have to be in Metallic Almandine.
Chains need replacing on both around 100k miles. I say around....mine was on 106k and still going strong. Shims will not doubt be due then too....I would have to have a 2.5...... But only because it would have to be in Metallic Almandine.
Blue/black is the only colour to have.... ;-)
richard300 said:
Am i right in thinking that premature failure of timing chain/tensioner can be an issue on 2.3's?
Yes, it was an issue along with exhaust manifolds cracking. I made an inquiry many mooms ago with Mercedes-Benz themselfs and was informed a lot of the 2.3's got modified chains/tensioners and or whatever replaced under warranty along with modified ex.manifolds, how exactly true this is I don't really know & wasn't concerned as these are not issues with the 2.5's. But I can't imagine it's an issue now on current cars as these problems came to light early in the cars production life from what I understand. rubystone said:
Chains need replacing on both around 100k miles. I say around....mine was on 106k and still going strong. Shims will not doubt be due then too....
Blue/black is the only colour to have.... ;-)
+1 on that. Mine was replaced at around 90k along with the tensioner by the previous owner and I got the chain & tensioner repalced at 142k just to be on the safe side and just as well I did as the chain guides were well pass their best. Blue/black is the only colour to have.... ;-)
Agree, Blue/Black would be my first choice.
P.s. Valve shims should checked every 10/12000 miles & re shimmed as required.
Edited by Johnboy Mac on Wednesday 6th April 22:23
Nath88n said:
tali1 said:
2.3 from B to E reg(although rare in these prefixes)
2.5 from E to J reg
Limited colours - Black, silver (both)and Almadine Red (2.5)
2.5 about 3 secs quicker to 100
A/c / leather(in black only) , heated seats - cost extras
The 2.3 is B to F and the 2.5 is F to K (I think there is one on a L)2.5 from E to J reg
Limited colours - Black, silver (both)and Almadine Red (2.5)
2.5 about 3 secs quicker to 100
A/c / leather(in black only) , heated seats - cost extras
Anyway like others have said, there is little in it. Just buy the best one you can. Although there were more 2.3's made than the 2.5, it's the 2.3 that's the rarer car in RHD form. Also there are more 2.5's that have been looked after.
A bit of info;
Buying guide for W201 190/190E models 1.8, 2.0 8v, 2.6 12v, 190d 2.0, 2.5 and 2.3/2.5 16v
Bodywork/structural
•Jacking points are a common place to rust, try and get a good look under the car to see if any welding to the front and rear jacking points is needed.
•The boot floor and Boot wells rust here, to check for rust open the boot and get a good look under the spare wheel area, also pull the plastic boot well liners out to see if any welding is needed in the boot well area as these tend to rust because of water sitting in these areas.
•Check the rubber around the boot lock and check the drainage pipes from the sunroof as these disconnect causing water to leak from the rear down into the boot where the water collects in the boot wells.
•If the car you’re buying has a body kit (for example a 16v body kit or AMG etc) try and get a good look around the tops of the arches and inside the lip of the arch and feel for rust and check the general condition of the bottom wings.
•Chrome fender covers are rust hiders and can cause more damage as they trap dirt and water which will erode the arch, make sure there is no rust present on the arches or any bubbles forming.
•Try and get a good look at the inner wings and check all brake pipes and fuel lines for any rust.
•Check all the windscreen seals as these tend to let water in so May need changing.
•It is also a good idea to check the condition of the sunroof seal as water can get if the seal has perished.
•Check for any dings and scraps in the bodywork.
•Check below the rear windscreen as this is a place where rust is found, check for any excessive corrosion.
•Check around the electric aerial. For any rust
•C pillar vents can leak into the boot wells.
•Check around the rear number plate fixing bolts for rust.
•Check around the rear clusters for rust bubbles.
•If a rear spoiler is fitted, check around the bolt holes for rust bubbles.
•SLS check the pipes the run under the car for leaks and check the bottle under the bonnet has fluid in it.
•Also check around the SLS engine pump for leaks...
•Check the shocks are not leaking and make sure there is no knocking as this can be the bushes in the bottom of the shocks/rams...
•Rust underneath the washer reservoir and radiator overflow.
•Check the battery tray for rust/rot...
•Check all the body panels line up correctly and make sure there is an equal amount of gap in each panel.
Drivetrain
•Listen out for any whines in the diff or strange noises.
•Listen out for any knocks from the Drivetrain; this could be the prop discs that need changing.
•Auto box: Smooth gear changes, no knocks or rattles, should change up and down fine S=standard E=Economy
•Manual box= Known to be notchy but should change gear without force, linkages and bushes are known to need changing to sharpen the gear change, this also goes for the close ratio gearbox (getrag) found in the 16v.
•There should be no strange noises or vibrations within the Drivetrain.
•Clunks when switching from forward to reverse gears. Could be flex disc or diff.
•Make sure all the shift points are correct, if not this could be the kick down cable or switch.
Mechanical
•Idle for a 190/190E 1.8-2.0 8v and 2.6 12v 190d 2.0, 2.5 autos should be around 700-800rpm; it should be constant at this and should not be a lumpy tick over.
•For a 16v manual it is around 900-1000rpm tick over, these engines do have a slight rattle known as “cam clutter” listen out on start up from cold if there are any excessive rattle as this could mean the timing chain may need changing.
•Check that the car has been maintained and that the gearbox oil and engine have been changed on a regular basis.
•There should be no hesitations and should pull fine all the way up to redline.
•If the car is not idling correctly this could be a number of thing, IACV (idle air control valve) is a common fault and check for any vacuum/air leaks in the rubber hoses around the injection system.
•On ignition you should he the fuel pump prime, make sure the fuel filter has also been changed within the service history.
•For diesels, if the glow plug light remains OFF when you turn the key to acc position and comes on for 10 seconds or so after you start the engine, this is the control unit telling you at least one glow plug is faulty. They are cheap to replace but 2 of them are very awkward to get to.
•Check for cracks in the plastic thermostat cover.
•If the car has a CAT check for any rattling sound when the car is revved, just sounds all clogged up and car will feel down on power...
•Make sure the fan kicks in at 92C if this does not or its always engaged check the sender…
Handling/suspension
•16 valve: The ride shouldn’t be too firm and shouldn’t bounce, the ride height at the rear should be a few inches from the arch to the tyre, if it sitting too low then there could be a leak in the lines and if its sitting too high then the accumulators may need changing or the valves.
•Sportlines: sit 22mm lower than standard 190/190E’s should be quite firm and handle well on the road.
•190/190E general: Check all the shocks for any leaks and check all springs as they are known to snap make sure there are no knocks coming from the rear of the car.
•Sportlines and 16v’s also have quicker ratio steering boxes, make sue none of the power steering components are not leaking
•Check all ball joints and track rod ends
•Check all springs they are known to snap and make sure the rears are not sagging.
•Make sure thereare no leaks in the ASD or SLS lines if the car is equipped with this, make sure there are also no leaks around the pump area.
Interior
•The condition of the interior should co inside with the mileage, check everything works, the sunroof should slide back and forth fine, is it doesn’t this could be a cog in the motor has stripped or a snapped sunroof cable which draws the sunroof back n forth.
•Check all electric windows work, if there are electric windows check they work, a common fault for these is that they stop working due to breaks in the wire between the pillar and the door also damp and water damage could stop the motors from working.
•16valve: check the lap timer a common problem is that the screen bleeds. Also check OTG in the dash (outside temperature gauge also suffers the same problem).
•Check door cards as these tend to lift away at the top. (These at the rear also suffer water damage if the rain sheet has been removed)
•Check the dashboard for any cracks.
•Check all round the visor area vinyl roof panel for dampness, discolouration and sagging. This suggests a leaking sunroof. Due to the drain arrangement in these cars its possible for them to leak water all down the back of the a pillar covers for years without detection. You may never see any water but the car will always be humid and gradually rotting the carpets.
•The central vents blow fresh air in from outside, don’t let this put you off as it was designed that way, the left and right side vents are the vents that blow warm air.
•When ignition is on make sure that the oil pressure gauge does not move as the engine is not running if it does this suggests a faulty sender or plug on the back of the clocks, the oil pressure gauge should only move when the engine is running.
•To adjust the clock push the right needle in and turn at the same time to will allow you to adjust the clock.
•To reset the trip meter (only whilst at stand still, do not to this in motion) push the left side needle in.
My 2.5-16;
Edited by Nath88n on Thursday 31st March 20:40
That thing had no HP but I never had to hit the pump more than once in two weeks.Gassing Station | Mercedes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff