Quite fancy an Alfa. Might need help.
Discussion
So, I'm starting to think its an itch that might need to be scratched as I've driven quite few, but never owned one. Had lots of Fiats (started my car sales career with Fiat over 25 years ago!) and I worked for a dealership where we also had an Alfa franchise, so have driven Mitos and Guiletta's and the odd other thing, but I'm digressing.
So, currently my love is for Saab, and I'm on my 3rd, a lovely 9-3 Aero Cabriolet. My gaze has been caught, however, by the GT Coupe. Now I drove a 1.8 Blackline ONCE and it felt disappointing, but then maybe it was that particular car. If I sell the Saab, I can't spend any more on replacing it (I've spent too much money on cars over the past few years, and now MrsB has put her foot down...) but I'm thinking my budget would get me a relatively nice example of a 1.8/2.0 Cloverleaf. I know people rate the diesel, but I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of diesel cars and my mileage can't justify needing one for economy, so its petrol for me. Also, I don't want to get into £500 p/a for road tax, so the 3.2 is out, and lower mileage ones are out of budget.
Can I ask the knowledge on here then, what is the difference in real world terms between the 1.8 & 2.0 engines? Its going to be down on power of the Saab (210bhp) I appreciate, but then thats not the be all and end all for me. I have been lucky with reliability with my Saabs, so I need a nice looking, reliable car that has a "reasonable" turn of speed and can handle 8k miles a year relatively trouble-free. Is worth forgetting the GT and looking at 2.2 Breras with higher miles?
Over to you.
So, currently my love is for Saab, and I'm on my 3rd, a lovely 9-3 Aero Cabriolet. My gaze has been caught, however, by the GT Coupe. Now I drove a 1.8 Blackline ONCE and it felt disappointing, but then maybe it was that particular car. If I sell the Saab, I can't spend any more on replacing it (I've spent too much money on cars over the past few years, and now MrsB has put her foot down...) but I'm thinking my budget would get me a relatively nice example of a 1.8/2.0 Cloverleaf. I know people rate the diesel, but I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of diesel cars and my mileage can't justify needing one for economy, so its petrol for me. Also, I don't want to get into £500 p/a for road tax, so the 3.2 is out, and lower mileage ones are out of budget.
Can I ask the knowledge on here then, what is the difference in real world terms between the 1.8 & 2.0 engines? Its going to be down on power of the Saab (210bhp) I appreciate, but then thats not the be all and end all for me. I have been lucky with reliability with my Saabs, so I need a nice looking, reliable car that has a "reasonable" turn of speed and can handle 8k miles a year relatively trouble-free. Is worth forgetting the GT and looking at 2.2 Breras with higher miles?
Over to you.
The 1.8 is a relatively proven unit, but obviously the slowest option on the GT, and not fast in general, they might drink a bit of oil, but shouldnt be that bad (my 147 drinks 1 litre every 2000-4000 km, depending on how much i flog it)
The 2.0 is basically a 2.0 TS bottom end, but with a direct injection (And hence, single spark) head. The early 2.0 JTSes are known for getting dirty valves, and generally not delivering the power claimed, and JTS in bad nick will be no faster then the 1.8, despite having the advantage on paper.
I keep flirting with the idea of a GT now and then as well, and while the majority of cars on offers (At least here) are JTS, i think i'd prefer the 1.8, it is the better known engine, and considering the tech was old by the time it hit the GT, i expect a well kept TS to be more problem-free then a JTS
On the subject of the V6 though, if you dont do too many miles (so the petrol costs will be kept in check), i would very much pay the extra road tax if you can, the GT is the last car to come with the famed Alfa Busso V6, and the experience of driving one will be much nicer and special then any of the 4 cilinders.
The 2.0 is basically a 2.0 TS bottom end, but with a direct injection (And hence, single spark) head. The early 2.0 JTSes are known for getting dirty valves, and generally not delivering the power claimed, and JTS in bad nick will be no faster then the 1.8, despite having the advantage on paper.
I keep flirting with the idea of a GT now and then as well, and while the majority of cars on offers (At least here) are JTS, i think i'd prefer the 1.8, it is the better known engine, and considering the tech was old by the time it hit the GT, i expect a well kept TS to be more problem-free then a JTS
On the subject of the V6 though, if you dont do too many miles (so the petrol costs will be kept in check), i would very much pay the extra road tax if you can, the GT is the last car to come with the famed Alfa Busso V6, and the experience of driving one will be much nicer and special then any of the 4 cilinders.
I'd go for the V6 as well, it understeers but has a fantastic character - I used to have a 156 2.5 V6. Otherwise, I think they're dynamically good, beautiful interior, but underpowered. There's a much nicer looking 159 in the classifieds with a 200 BHP 1.7 turbo which looks interesting... I didn't even know that engine existed!
-Pete- said:
I'd go for the V6 as well, it understeers but has a fantastic character - I used to have a 156 2.5 V6. Otherwise, I think they're dynamically good, beautiful interior, but underpowered. There's a much nicer looking 159 in the classifieds with a 200 BHP 1.7 turbo which looks interesting... I didn't even know that engine existed!
The 1750 TBi in the 159/brera/spider is the base for the same engine in the Giulietta and 4C, an excellent lump and pretty much the best choice in that generation of car if you want a petrol, considering the other options are all (half) GM junk, and all JTS lumps have timing chain problems.The 1750 though is light for its power, easily mapped and just a nice engine allround from what i hear, even if it lacks the character of the old busso V6
-Pete- said:
I'd go for the V6 as well, it understeers but has a fantastic character - I used to have a 156 2.5 V6. Otherwise, I think they're dynamically good, beautiful interior, but underpowered. There's a much nicer looking 159 in the classifieds with a 200 BHP 1.7 turbo which looks interesting... I didn't even know that engine existed!
I have found that stiffening up the front end (!) helps to reduce this a lot. I fitted a strut brace, some poly bushes on the arms and a GTa roll bar which help keep the tyres in proper alignment on turn. The chassis flexing under the weight of the engine and the tyres wearing out prematurely doesn't do much for the handling. Good tyres like the Uniroyals I have make the last chunk of difference.Now I am concerned about oversteer on wet roundabouts!
What's everyone's view on the Brera 2.2 JTS? I've driven them before, and I had varying experiences with performance, but as said, that's not the priority. Is reliability ok on these? Do we think that the Brera is a better car than the GT because its a bit newer, or do we prefer the GT because its more "Alfa"?
I've recently picked up a 2004 GT 2.0 JTS, 84k miles. Its super comfy, sporty enough for my needs and returns 35mpg comfortably on the motorway. There were a number of issues with the JTS as mentioned which is a shame because its a lovely unit otherwise. They benefitted from a new inlet camshaft design in mid '03 which apparently fixed some of the carbon buildup issues known to sap some power.
Mine had the worn inlet camshaft lobes, a common problem around this mileage due to oil contamination from the direct injection. Happy at the minute to pay for wear and tear because of the sheer character of the thing. Very light on its feet and has bags of feel in all the right places. And just look at them! Stunning machines. They guzzle about a litre of oil every 1500 miles, like most Alfas.
A well looked after one with a FSH should be fairly reliable & a bargain! Parts are pretty cheap too.
edit: Worth noting the JTS is notably lighter over the front axel than the diseasel & V6. A more balanced package IMO.
Mine had the worn inlet camshaft lobes, a common problem around this mileage due to oil contamination from the direct injection. Happy at the minute to pay for wear and tear because of the sheer character of the thing. Very light on its feet and has bags of feel in all the right places. And just look at them! Stunning machines. They guzzle about a litre of oil every 1500 miles, like most Alfas.
A well looked after one with a FSH should be fairly reliable & a bargain! Parts are pretty cheap too.
edit: Worth noting the JTS is notably lighter over the front axel than the diseasel & V6. A more balanced package IMO.
MrB. said:
What's everyone's view on the Brera 2.2 JTS? I've driven them before, and I had varying experiences with performance, but as said, that's not the priority. Is reliability ok on these? Do we think that the Brera is a better car than the GT because its a bit newer, or do we prefer the GT because its more "Alfa"?
I drove an '08 2.2JTS for a few months when a sales chap returned his - and it was woefully slow and felt breathless (I think due to weight). But, the flip side of the weight meant it felt very stable and solid. I actually quite enjoyed it, it's pretty and looks different to most other things around. Mine had the cam-chain stretch issue and the interior looked a bit beaten up but everything worked and it seemed to behave itself.MrB. said:
What's everyone's view on the Brera 2.2 JTS? I've driven them before, and I had varying experiences with performance, but as said, that's not the priority. Is reliability ok on these? Do we think that the Brera is a better car than the GT because its a bit newer, or do we prefer the GT because its more "Alfa"?
Brera has imo a far better interior in terms of design and quality but it has no back seats, well it does but only for people with no legs.It's heavy as well so lacks the sharpness of the GT. Put it this way, if I had to commute in my Alfa I'd pick the brera, no sorry I'd have the 159. As my 3.2gt is for pleasure only I have the correct car out of the 2.
Get a V6 if you can as the extra running costs are more than offset by the lack if depreciation. Buy a good one, drive it for a couple of years then sell on for a profit. Simple..
MrB. said:
What's everyone's view on the Brera 2.2 JTS? I've driven them before, and I had varying experiences with performance, but as said, that's not the priority. Is reliability ok on these? Do we think that the Brera is a better car than the GT because its a bit newer, or do we prefer the GT because its more "Alfa"?
The 1.9 and 2.2 JTS engines have a cam chain which will most likely stretch to the point of need replacement during the car's life, so if you go for one of those, be sure to check if the chain has been fixed/replacedOtherwise, the brera is based on the 159, and as others have said, quite heavy compared to the GT, and as a result even the 3.2 V6 doesnt feel as quick as it should
Personally i dont really like the design of the brera, the rear just doesnt work for me, id prefer a 159 saloon over the brera in terms of looks. Engine wise i think that entire generation is a hard choice, all petrol lumps besides the 1750TBi are in some form GM-sourced (bottom end in the case of the JTS lumps, the 1.8 MPI is a GM lump entirely), and all the JTSes have the cam chain problem lurking in the background. The diesels are a much safer choice, as they are reliable and powerful enough (although the 8v 1.9 JTD in a 159 isnt exactly fast)
Id have a well-kept GT, regardless of engine, over a 2.2 brera. At the same price the GT should have less bills waiting to happen, and to me it just is a more appealing car
GT is less refined than the Brera, but quite a bit lighter and therefore feels sharper and is quicker
I'm a proper petrolhead, but I'd always have a 1.9 jtdm over either of the small petrol engines for the GT. The diesel will easily map to 170+ bhp and will be quicker in every conceivable circumstance than the 1.8 or 2.0 lumps.
If you're determined to have a petrol GT, the only choice worth considering is the V6 - epic engine, but needs to be looked after. Get the right exhaust on it and you'll never entertain a four-pot lump again.
The 3.2 in the Brera / 159 is completely unrelated to the 3.2 in the GT and is less tuneful and less reliable. I wouldn't.......
The only Brera I'd have over my diesel GT is the 2.4 diesel and I'd map it to about 250bhp - great engine for an oil-burner, although its not particularly economical
I'm a proper petrolhead, but I'd always have a 1.9 jtdm over either of the small petrol engines for the GT. The diesel will easily map to 170+ bhp and will be quicker in every conceivable circumstance than the 1.8 or 2.0 lumps.
If you're determined to have a petrol GT, the only choice worth considering is the V6 - epic engine, but needs to be looked after. Get the right exhaust on it and you'll never entertain a four-pot lump again.
The 3.2 in the Brera / 159 is completely unrelated to the 3.2 in the GT and is less tuneful and less reliable. I wouldn't.......
The only Brera I'd have over my diesel GT is the 2.4 diesel and I'd map it to about 250bhp - great engine for an oil-burner, although its not particularly economical
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