Integrale pricing...
Discussion
Now, I have been following 'grales for a year or so and am thinking about dipping my toe in the water. I am interested in pricing as there seems two spots right now:
- from dealers, a decent evo 1/2 appears to be listed at 15k, maybe a couple more from Walkers
- there are two (at least one now sold) private sales listed at 9k and, judging by description and posts on here, they are/were owned by the type of chap who looks after them
So, they sound very similar cars with a £6k premium for a dealer (Walkers, Auto Integrale etc). Is this just a security blanket issue of buying with some sort of dealer warranty or am I missing something else obvious? It just seems a large gap versus my experience of other specialist motors.
Any thoughts????
- from dealers, a decent evo 1/2 appears to be listed at 15k, maybe a couple more from Walkers
- there are two (at least one now sold) private sales listed at 9k and, judging by description and posts on here, they are/were owned by the type of chap who looks after them
So, they sound very similar cars with a £6k premium for a dealer (Walkers, Auto Integrale etc). Is this just a security blanket issue of buying with some sort of dealer warranty or am I missing something else obvious? It just seems a large gap versus my experience of other specialist motors.
Any thoughts????
Hi there,
EVO2s demand a higher premium and are normally around the 12 - 15K mark and these are the ones you've seen with the dealers. EVO1s are priced upto to and around the 10K mark. These prices are for 'normal' cars, expect to pay considerably more for very low mileage or special editions. Ensure the car has been loved, this will normally involve more than a simple service history!
Any more questions and I'd be pleased to try and answer or head over to Evocorner on delphiforums.com
Jamie.
p.s. I bought the first car I looked at and have paid considerably more than I planned to in the last two years but she's really got under my skin :-)
EVO2s demand a higher premium and are normally around the 12 - 15K mark and these are the ones you've seen with the dealers. EVO1s are priced upto to and around the 10K mark. These prices are for 'normal' cars, expect to pay considerably more for very low mileage or special editions. Ensure the car has been loved, this will normally involve more than a simple service history!
Any more questions and I'd be pleased to try and answer or head over to Evocorner on delphiforums.com
Jamie.
p.s. I bought the first car I looked at and have paid considerably more than I planned to in the last two years but she's really got under my skin :-)
Talking generally
With cars like this, I have always found dealers charging way over the market rate.
e.g. a TVR specialist that offers some fairly tatty cars (from what I saw) but asks absolutely TOP wack and then some, same with Alfa e.t.c
I personally prefer to buy privately, have it checked over and pay a fair price.
Dealers often get cars from private sellers/auction, so little difference apart from a warranty that they will no doubt try to get out of!
With cars like this, I have always found dealers charging way over the market rate.
e.g. a TVR specialist that offers some fairly tatty cars (from what I saw) but asks absolutely TOP wack and then some, same with Alfa e.t.c
I personally prefer to buy privately, have it checked over and pay a fair price.
Dealers often get cars from private sellers/auction, so little difference apart from a warranty that they will no doubt try to get out of!
V6Alfisti said:
Talking generally
With cars like this, I have always found dealers charging way over the market rate.
e.g. a TVR specialist that offers some fairly tatty cars (from what I saw) but asks absolutely TOP wack and then some, same with Alfa e.t.c
I personally prefer to buy privately, have it checked over and pay a fair price.
Dealers often get cars from private sellers/auction, so little difference apart from a warranty that they will no doubt try to get out of!
Hmmmm!!With cars like this, I have always found dealers charging way over the market rate.
e.g. a TVR specialist that offers some fairly tatty cars (from what I saw) but asks absolutely TOP wack and then some, same with Alfa e.t.c
I personally prefer to buy privately, have it checked over and pay a fair price.
Dealers often get cars from private sellers/auction, so little difference apart from a warranty that they will no doubt try to get out of!
Not sure I agree with any of that. I,me NOT a dealer and have bought my Murci from a main dealer and the Grale privately, and I found the following:
The dealers price was not over priced at all. In fact I have generally found that private sellers price THEIR vehicles too high and the dealers prices were about the same. I also found the warranty to be EXACTLY what the dealer promised, sorting ( albeit rather slowly timewise in Lambo Birminghams case) the issues properly and to an exacting standard.
The seller of the Grale was by enlarge honest with his desciption of the vehicle, butt did omit certain faults that I have had to sort myself..... now I don't mind with the grale as its easy to work on but I sorry there is no substistute ( even though some Pheaders do poo poo dealer warranties) for the safety net that allows any faults to be rectified.
I think sometimes some of you guys really get wrapped up in snubbing what are mostly genuinely honest dealers who dare I say it....... are only making a living!!
........ just like you and I
There endeth my lament!!
WIJ933 said:
V6Alfisti said:
Talking generally
With cars like this, I have always found dealers charging way over the market rate.
e.g. a TVR specialist that offers some fairly tatty cars (from what I saw) but asks absolutely TOP wack and then some, same with Alfa e.t.c
I personally prefer to buy privately, have it checked over and pay a fair price.
Dealers often get cars from private sellers/auction, so little difference apart from a warranty that they will no doubt try to get out of!
Hmmmm!!With cars like this, I have always found dealers charging way over the market rate.
e.g. a TVR specialist that offers some fairly tatty cars (from what I saw) but asks absolutely TOP wack and then some, same with Alfa e.t.c
I personally prefer to buy privately, have it checked over and pay a fair price.
Dealers often get cars from private sellers/auction, so little difference apart from a warranty that they will no doubt try to get out of!
Not sure I agree with any of that. I,me NOT a dealer and have bought my Murci from a main dealer and the Grale privately, and I found the following:
The dealers price was not over priced at all. In fact I have generally found that private sellers price THEIR vehicles too high and the dealers prices were about the same. I also found the warranty to be EXACTLY what the dealer promised, sorting ( albeit rather slowly timewise in Lambo Birminghams case) the issues properly and to an exacting standard.
The seller of the Grale was by enlarge honest with his desciption of the vehicle, butt did omit certain faults that I have had to sort myself..... now I don't mind with the grale as its easy to work on but I sorry there is no substistute ( even though some Pheaders do poo poo dealer warranties) for the safety net that allows any faults to be rectified.
I think sometimes some of you guys really get wrapped up in snubbing what are mostly genuinely honest dealers who dare I say it....... are only making a living!!
........ just like you and I
There endeth my lament!!
Everyone has their own experiences, but most dealers couldn't get anywhere near, unless they were desperate to get rid.My first experience of a dealer bought car, resulted in me taking them to small claims court to get a problem sorted, my latest experience comes from a well respected specialist (friends car) who supplied my housemate with an apparently fully reconditioned car, new brakes/suspension/cambelt/paintwork e.t.c, seems the work either wasn't done or done poorly resulting in said housemate paying over £400 for repair work on the braking system (after many failed repairs), I will obviously be supporting her through the claim.
Dealers openly admitting to me (after I pick out repaired accident damage on one car) that another car they had on the forecourt had the whole side of the car ripped to bits by some kind of bollard (in an attempt to show me the quality of their own bodyshop!) didn't bode well!
The amount of manufacturer approved dealers that provide shoddy auction cars and unrecorded damage repaired cars is shocking (though also some nicely looked after ones).
Having said that, I know some fantastic dealers where the premium is genuinely worth it, but they are few and far between in my experience (and this isn't based on experience with cheap second bit dealers).
To compare a £100k plus car with something retailing at £10k is clearly going to leave you with a far different feeling of the experience (unless they are very good!). However imagine buying a car from a specialist dealer (15k) and a private buyer (nice chap, clearly loves the car) for 10k and has all the paperwork to back the claims up? and your own inspections conclude the car is sound.
If you do your research before hand, take time to look through the history of the car and look for common faults in advance...then I think there is often little need to pay a 50%+ premium (OP's original comment of 9k vs 15k).
If however you have a choice of two identical cars at the same money from both dealer/private then you would be mad not to go with the dealer, simply for the fact you legally have some protection. 6 months protection (within reason) should be achievable despite the limited 3 month policies the smaller outfits try to get away with and then flat out deny your consumer rights by saying something along the lines of "i've been in the trade for xx years and have never heard of act XX"
There are some great specialists out there, but compare the cars on a direct basis and see what the better deal is.
For extra security, I sometimes take out the AA Breakdown Cover, which covers any problems that stop onward travel (up to £500 per claim) and costs £60 + AA breakdown cover.
Edited by V6Alfisti on Wednesday 24th December 20:34
WIJ933 said:
The dealers price was not over priced at all. In fact I have generally found that private sellers price THEIR vehicles too high and the dealers prices were about the same.
that seems to be the case a lot nowadaysthe private sellers haven't realised just how bad the market is and at the same time, the dealers have, and are generally s
ttting their pants so their price for the same car is actually CHEAPER !that was never the case before the 'crunch' though... far from it
also, it certainly doesnt apply to integrales
Walkers, Kanku, Auto Integrale, that place in berkshire whose name escapes me... they all charge bigger money that private sales
hmm..
if you dont know i would seriously recommend reading up fully about it
Front screen area
There is a tendency for the front pillars to rust around the front windscreen. This should always be checked and attended to. If ignored this rust will affect the rigidity of the body and ultimately your safety.
Rear tailgate and roof
The small lip of steel above the rear tailgate before it turns over onto the roof often rusts. This is caused by the design of the seal on the rear tailgate. There is a rubber strip along the top of this opening where water can sit. If some grit collects in here as well, the water and grit attach the bottom of this root piece causing rust. This area is hard to cure, and requires new metal welding into the affected area. Unfortunately the roof is quite thin, and easy to warp with too much heat. Get an expert MIG welder to do it for you, it really is quite tricky.
Some people have suggested removing the rubber from the top of the tailgate to stop this happening. The problem with this, is that you then get some wind noise in the back and this does not seem to be a satisfactory solution.
Front Doors
The leading edge of the front doors can also give problems. There are three skins of steel here, and stopping the rust of hard. Even welding a new plate in is not a solution, as the rust continues from behind. The only solution appears to be to cut this area right out and clean it all up.
Rear wheel arches
Check for rust on the rear wheel arches, especially on the front. The joint between the inner & outer wheel arch is not very good, and consequently rusts. The inside wheel arch also rusts around the sealing plugs fitted for access into the sills.
Furthermore check the rear suspension turrets for rust as these can rot through. Where top of turret meets inner webbing of quarter panel it can corrode badly. You need to take out boot carpet that covers tool case and houses water reservoir for windscreen wipers, all will become clear.
The bodyshell's rigidity is not great and reduces over time. A weak bodyshell can be felt by placing the heel of your hand just below the windscreen at the bottom of the A-pillar and feeling movement when the engine is revved. It is important to ensure that the shell is sound as this is the whole basis of the car - other parts can always be replaced. Beware of uprated dampers as these can exacerbate body flexing.
What Grales suffer badly is way too hard suspension stressing the shell. The shells do crack on the top of the a post - this is normally cosmetic - even for totally standard cars. I had a Martini 6 with 27,000kms and it cracked. When really bad, look at the base of the door frame near to the hinge. Cracks here need fixing soon! When really bad, you will get cracks on the deck panel between screen and bonnet well - but this is very, very rare and will always have been preceded with the door-frame base area.
Bodyshell cracks: similarly, this will depend on the life that the vehicle has led. Some bodyshells suffer far more than others, but in a minor state, it is nothing that cannot be remedied. It is most economical to have such scope completed with bodywork, but work in isolation is possible for a permanent fix.
Edited by jackal on Saturday 27th December 09:21
jackal said:
Walkers are in a league of their own
other than that, a rust free, bodyshell crack free EVO2 should be 12-14k
if you want a yellow car then contact Kanku as they have a 16k mile MINT Giallo EVO1 that would be very hard to resist
Is that a reference to Walker's quality and/or their associated premmium pricing???other than that, a rust free, bodyshell crack free EVO2 should be 12-14k
if you want a yellow car then contact Kanku as they have a 16k mile MINT Giallo EVO1 that would be very hard to resist
I love yellow and had a 964 RS in Sun Yellow which was lovely so the Giallo appeals. At 16k miles I suspect a large price. Do you know asking?
James
jimmyslr said:
Is that a reference to Walker's quality and/or their associated premmium pricing???
I'd hazard a guess it's a little of both...although necessarily it's more of the latter for any given state of car. Top fellas though, don't get me wrong. Is John Whalley not still going, Bishops Stortford? I've had limited dealings with him but he's only ever been outstandingly helpful with both advice and time.
ETA I've had a 50:50 experience buying private, one beautiful car (ex Walkers maintained and sold), one lemon. If I were to do it again I'd go private. You get one looked after by an enthusiast and it'll be as good as a dealer one (who seemingly will have done the servicing themselves anyway)....indeed, I get the impression that many cars tend to go from private to dealer to private to dealer with the dealer making a tidy profit each time on pricing that is either going up, or at least, not dropping much at all....mind you ....that's kind of self evident given that it's a finite pool of cars nowadays I suppose. Hope you get my drift though...basically cut out the dealer in that loop and save yourself some money...I know there are guarantees with dealers but are they really worth much in reality?
Edited by DrTre on Sunday 28th December 12:55
jimmy
i think Kanku wanted 18k
negotiation probably possible
its a bit silly for an EVO1 but there again teh mileage is very low and Bramley and that Wandsworth Fezza dealer are selling Giallo sub 10k miles cars for 30-40k !
not worth it if you are going to do another 6k miles+ a year on it...
pick one up for ~14k that has ~50k miles but everything sorted and belts/bushes just done etc..
I am on the cusp of buying one but I think another car might just prevent me !
i think Kanku wanted 18k
negotiation probably possible
its a bit silly for an EVO1 but there again teh mileage is very low and Bramley and that Wandsworth Fezza dealer are selling Giallo sub 10k miles cars for 30-40k !
not worth it if you are going to do another 6k miles+ a year on it...
pick one up for ~14k that has ~50k miles but everything sorted and belts/bushes just done etc..
I am on the cusp of buying one but I think another car might just prevent me !
jackal said:
jimmy
i think Kanku wanted 18k
negotiation probably possible
its a bit silly for an EVO1 but there again teh mileage is very low and Bramley and that Wandsworth Fezza dealer are selling Giallo sub 10k miles cars for 30-40k !
not worth it if you are going to do another 6k miles+ a year on it...
pick one up for ~14k that has ~50k miles but everything sorted and belts/bushes just done etc..
I am on the cusp of buying one but I think another car might just prevent me !
I agree even though I'd be a couple of thousand miles pa tops I expect. The £40k ones are a bit silly. Some of the private sale Evo1s at c10k when they have been owned by an enthusiast look a decent deal or an Evo2 of the type you describe. Giallo is my favourite colour though....i think Kanku wanted 18k
negotiation probably possible
its a bit silly for an EVO1 but there again teh mileage is very low and Bramley and that Wandsworth Fezza dealer are selling Giallo sub 10k miles cars for 30-40k !
not worth it if you are going to do another 6k miles+ a year on it...
pick one up for ~14k that has ~50k miles but everything sorted and belts/bushes just done etc..
I am on the cusp of buying one but I think another car might just prevent me !
....just got back from checking every part of my Grale's bodyshell - only took a day and a half
Cheers Jackal for all that stuff. My gal only passed only EVERY count..... taking offers over £35k now!!
Thought I would throw in a picture showing that I do actually work on my fleet(well with the help of one of my tekkies!!)
Cheers Jackal for all that stuff. My gal only passed only EVERY count..... taking offers over £35k now!!
Thought I would throw in a picture showing that I do actually work on my fleet(well with the help of one of my tekkies!!)
Stole a drive after changing the turbo hoses after feeling she wasn't boosting like those crazy 90's cars did.
She drove absolutely GORGEOUS!! - so planted. The handling is way ahead of its year.
Just had a look at your profile - always wanted a 968CS but couldn't afford one when they were out. Once I had the money the cars had been and gone. Looks lovely - but I would say that....its yellow!!
A little piccy of the trip out.
She drove absolutely GORGEOUS!! - so planted. The handling is way ahead of its year.
Just had a look at your profile - always wanted a 968CS but couldn't afford one when they were out. Once I had the money the cars had been and gone. Looks lovely - but I would say that....its yellow!!
A little piccy of the trip out.
WIJ933 said:
Stole a drive after changing the turbo hoses after feeling she wasn't boosting like those crazy 90's cars did.
She drove absolutely GORGEOUS!! - so planted. The handling is way ahead of its year.
Just had a look at your profile - always wanted a 968CS but couldn't afford one when they were out. Once I had the money the cars had been and gone. Looks lovely - but I would say that....its yellow!!
A little piccy of the trip out.
i always wanted a 968cs when they came out but had an Elan at the time, then chopped that in for an esprit as i was a bit Lotus mad in those days. Also wanted an EVO2 at the same time. I just love the 968cs, really solid, meaty and well built... sharp for a porker but feels slightly vague in stock trim compared to an EVo2.She drove absolutely GORGEOUS!! - so planted. The handling is way ahead of its year.
Just had a look at your profile - always wanted a 968CS but couldn't afford one when they were out. Once I had the money the cars had been and gone. Looks lovely - but I would say that....its yellow!!
A little piccy of the trip out.
is your car standard ? have you dynoed it ? what mileage and can i ask how much you paid ?
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