I want a 166 but I'm scared
Discussion
Well, you know. Alfa horror stories. I've never known anyone with a 166, only a 156, and one person had one run flawlessly, another's was into the garage a lot. My only real knowledge about that period Alfas is that the V6s are more reliable than the Twinsparks? Any truth in that?
Realistically I'd be looking at spending £3kish on a 166... Should I!?
Realistically I'd be looking at spending £3kish on a 166... Should I!?
yes, there is a lot of truth in the V6 being more reliable.
in fact, my 1999 166 2.5 has been more reliable than the lexus GS300 it replaces, or the 166 2 liter I had before it. here are a few tips.
service history is essential at your price level, check for cam belt evidence, it should be an absolute maximum of 60,000 or 5 years, many prefer 60,000 or 4 years, alfa say 72,000 / 6 years. (Ts is 36 months 36,000 miles)
check for excessive snatch in the driveline - it may indicate the dual mass flywheel is worn (reasonably expensive, although recon flywheels are available) the Ts wears the flywheel quicker than the V6, many TS's will need a flywheel at about 100,000 miles.
all alfas use oil, some use a little, some use a lot, check colour and level of the oil.
rear lower arm joints wear, resulting in uneven tyre wear on the inside edge, powerflex now do poly bushes that replace the stock rose joints, so its not a massive issue, but a good bargaining point
upper and lower front arms can wear, resulting in creaky front suspension, try and take the car over a few speed bumps to check for noise. not hugely expensive, but worth noting.
the heater matrix can leak, the matrix is quite cheap, but its a pig to change, in auto models it leaks onto the gearbox ECU and wreaks havoc. many (myself included) have used a product called K-seal to prevent matrix leaks before they happen, or at the cusp of the problem - this seems very successful, but wont work if the matrix is too far gone.
rust is not an issue with any 166's
front springs can break, so check the coils over.
check all electrics work, although they are very reliable, poor high RPM power is likely to be the MAF, all engines should rev very keenly to the redline, especialy in lower gears.
a deisel like sound from a twin spark at idle is the variator - it should be replaced at cam belt time, the variator isn't cheap, but isn't the end of the world if its noisy and the car is due a belt soon, no damage will occur, just a slight lack of low end power,
the TS also has a balance shaft belt that should be changed, if the balance belt fails, not only can it take out the cam belt, the resulting harmonic vibration it sends through the crank can cause havoc.
if you buy a TS with a recent cam belt failure and engine rebuild, check for proof the big end shells have been done too, they fail every time if they aren't
clutches are fairly heavy on the V6, and get heavier with age - if its very stiff and the car has 80 - 100k on it, you may need a clutch fairly soon. the pedal has a short throw, feels odd at first, soon becomes natural, and makes long throw clutches fitted to modern small cars feel dead and horrible
this list may sound bad, but its par for the course for any car of this age, the 166 is a good solid car, and gives few problems if you get a decent one. at your budget you should be able to get a nice super, or a stunning 2.5 leather is desirable, and the DSP sound system, phone, and sat nav are all nice to have. handbooks are handy, and check the owner has the ICS code. many dealers see the nav button and think the car has sat nav, if the car is advertised as having nav, press the button, if it says 'navigation system not available' it doesn't have it, and adjust the price down a couple of hundred - most do not have nav, especially phase 1 cars.
hope this helps, a good 166 is a GREAT car.
in fact, my 1999 166 2.5 has been more reliable than the lexus GS300 it replaces, or the 166 2 liter I had before it. here are a few tips.
service history is essential at your price level, check for cam belt evidence, it should be an absolute maximum of 60,000 or 5 years, many prefer 60,000 or 4 years, alfa say 72,000 / 6 years. (Ts is 36 months 36,000 miles)
check for excessive snatch in the driveline - it may indicate the dual mass flywheel is worn (reasonably expensive, although recon flywheels are available) the Ts wears the flywheel quicker than the V6, many TS's will need a flywheel at about 100,000 miles.
all alfas use oil, some use a little, some use a lot, check colour and level of the oil.
rear lower arm joints wear, resulting in uneven tyre wear on the inside edge, powerflex now do poly bushes that replace the stock rose joints, so its not a massive issue, but a good bargaining point
upper and lower front arms can wear, resulting in creaky front suspension, try and take the car over a few speed bumps to check for noise. not hugely expensive, but worth noting.
the heater matrix can leak, the matrix is quite cheap, but its a pig to change, in auto models it leaks onto the gearbox ECU and wreaks havoc. many (myself included) have used a product called K-seal to prevent matrix leaks before they happen, or at the cusp of the problem - this seems very successful, but wont work if the matrix is too far gone.
rust is not an issue with any 166's
front springs can break, so check the coils over.
check all electrics work, although they are very reliable, poor high RPM power is likely to be the MAF, all engines should rev very keenly to the redline, especialy in lower gears.
a deisel like sound from a twin spark at idle is the variator - it should be replaced at cam belt time, the variator isn't cheap, but isn't the end of the world if its noisy and the car is due a belt soon, no damage will occur, just a slight lack of low end power,
the TS also has a balance shaft belt that should be changed, if the balance belt fails, not only can it take out the cam belt, the resulting harmonic vibration it sends through the crank can cause havoc.
if you buy a TS with a recent cam belt failure and engine rebuild, check for proof the big end shells have been done too, they fail every time if they aren't
clutches are fairly heavy on the V6, and get heavier with age - if its very stiff and the car has 80 - 100k on it, you may need a clutch fairly soon. the pedal has a short throw, feels odd at first, soon becomes natural, and makes long throw clutches fitted to modern small cars feel dead and horrible
this list may sound bad, but its par for the course for any car of this age, the 166 is a good solid car, and gives few problems if you get a decent one. at your budget you should be able to get a nice super, or a stunning 2.5 leather is desirable, and the DSP sound system, phone, and sat nav are all nice to have. handbooks are handy, and check the owner has the ICS code. many dealers see the nav button and think the car has sat nav, if the car is advertised as having nav, press the button, if it says 'navigation system not available' it doesn't have it, and adjust the price down a couple of hundred - most do not have nav, especially phase 1 cars.
hope this helps, a good 166 is a GREAT car.
Edited by philoldsmobile on Sunday 2nd May 14:08
find a good one and you won't regret it for a second... picked my 2.5 v6 up three weeks ago and finding it to be an awsome car! its my 5th alfa having had two 33's a 156 saloon and a 156 sportswagon, so well built , really solid, sounds awsome , looks amazing and gets stares and comments wherever i go, i even love the sportronic gear box now i'm used to driving it (especially in sport) happy hunting
That's really helpful, Phil (and angeleye), loads of great information. I guess for my budget I would be looking at a clean, well-serviced '99/'00ish 2.5 V6? Funnily I'm more glad that rust isn't an issue, it's the main scare I have with older cars! The other problems/suspension don't seem particularly bad to be honest. How much would a new clutch cost?
I definitely want leather, the interior's gorgeous. Tell me more about the DSP sound system - was better sound an option and is it common?
Also, what kind of mpg do you get? I'm running a Mini Cooper S (turbo) so I'm expecting less than I'm getting now (probably 30-35mpg), but I was expecting maybe 25mpg? Do all cars have sixth gear and if not what's motorway like? Cheers!
Edit: are the Supers the ones with Momo leather? They seem quite rare, what else did they have on them?
I definitely want leather, the interior's gorgeous. Tell me more about the DSP sound system - was better sound an option and is it common?
Also, what kind of mpg do you get? I'm running a Mini Cooper S (turbo) so I'm expecting less than I'm getting now (probably 30-35mpg), but I was expecting maybe 25mpg? Do all cars have sixth gear and if not what's motorway like? Cheers!
Edit: are the Supers the ones with Momo leather? They seem quite rare, what else did they have on them?
Edited by LongLiveTazio on Monday 3rd May 09:27
took mine on a longer run and getting just over 30mpg,think on a decent motorway run this could push 35 just cruising at 70ish! driving around the city and local driving the computer is showing around 22mpg, doesnt bother me hugely as i cycle the 22 miles to and from work most days!! i think all the supers were 6 speed manual, not sure about he manual 2.5 tho! mine has the 4 speed sportronic which has the choice of normal auto that learns and adapts to your driving style , sport auto and manual tiptronic! the sound system is hugely impresive! think it has 8 various speakers/tweeters around the car and all controled via equalizers etc on the ics! oh yeah! mines not a super but has the gorgeous momo leather with the alfa stitched logo etc, i guess it depends what was specced on the cars from new, your buget should get you decent one! i traded a hyundai coupe f2 evo for mine the coupe had mega rust bubbled arches and a hundred thousand miles , people were offering around 5-600 as a trade the 166 was up for £2000, the dealer had had it for ages and was so desperate to get rid he gave me 1500 for the coupe, so essentialy i paid 500 for the 166 , fully stamped service book, belts all changed on time , oil service twice a year, all the options except the nav! these are seriously good cars
Edited by angeleye on Monday 3rd May 11:09
Supers were the 3 liter manuals with 6 speed gearboxes.
all manuals were 6 speed after 2001 (i think) your budget should get a really excellent 2.5 or 3 liter, i'd be looking for sub 80,000 miles, full service history, and i'd not want fabric interior at all at that money.
the DSP system can be easily spotted by looking at the CD changer in the boot (no CD changer = no DSP for a start, but you can have a CD changer without DSP) basically you are looking for an amp mounted above the CD player, and when you go into the audio settings, rather than just bass and treble, you will find a graphic equalizer on the screen, allowing much more adjustability. the standard sound system was made by becker and isn't bad at all, but DSP is far better.
a clutch will cost about £600 to change, so its worth checking carefully. as with all cars, the underside may show little spots of surface rust staining, but ALL cars will after 3 or 4 years (this surprises some people) but as the 166 is galvenised, they never go past brown spots at worst. I've never heard of a 166 failing its MOT, or even having an advisory on rust. any rust on body panels is down to bad accident repairs rather than the factory.
body panel fit should be excellent, especially the doors, although it seems less precise on the bonnet and boot, bumpers should fit very tight against the body with no gaps at all.
Economy varies for my 2.5 manual, as I live in Milton Keynes, worst case scenario is about 20 mpg (MK is terrible for fuel consumption) and 32 / 33 is quite possible cruising at 70 on the motorway, if you work on a mixed average of 25 mpg you are right on the money. It may be worthwhile looking towards the classified adds on one of the alfa enthusiast sites such as alfa owner, or alfa romeo owners club, as they tend to be more thoroughly vetted and better maintained cars.
you can get loads of great info here; www.alfaowner.com/forum
glad to be of some help, take the plunge, its well worth it.
all manuals were 6 speed after 2001 (i think) your budget should get a really excellent 2.5 or 3 liter, i'd be looking for sub 80,000 miles, full service history, and i'd not want fabric interior at all at that money.
the DSP system can be easily spotted by looking at the CD changer in the boot (no CD changer = no DSP for a start, but you can have a CD changer without DSP) basically you are looking for an amp mounted above the CD player, and when you go into the audio settings, rather than just bass and treble, you will find a graphic equalizer on the screen, allowing much more adjustability. the standard sound system was made by becker and isn't bad at all, but DSP is far better.
a clutch will cost about £600 to change, so its worth checking carefully. as with all cars, the underside may show little spots of surface rust staining, but ALL cars will after 3 or 4 years (this surprises some people) but as the 166 is galvenised, they never go past brown spots at worst. I've never heard of a 166 failing its MOT, or even having an advisory on rust. any rust on body panels is down to bad accident repairs rather than the factory.
body panel fit should be excellent, especially the doors, although it seems less precise on the bonnet and boot, bumpers should fit very tight against the body with no gaps at all.
Economy varies for my 2.5 manual, as I live in Milton Keynes, worst case scenario is about 20 mpg (MK is terrible for fuel consumption) and 32 / 33 is quite possible cruising at 70 on the motorway, if you work on a mixed average of 25 mpg you are right on the money. It may be worthwhile looking towards the classified adds on one of the alfa enthusiast sites such as alfa owner, or alfa romeo owners club, as they tend to be more thoroughly vetted and better maintained cars.
you can get loads of great info here; www.alfaowner.com/forum
glad to be of some help, take the plunge, its well worth it.
angeleye said:
took mine on a longer run and getting just over 30mpg,think on a decent motorway run this could push 35 just cruising at 70ish! driving around the city and local driving the computer is showing around 22mpg, doesnt bother me hugely as i cycle the 22 miles to and from work most days!! i think all the supers were 6 speed manual, not sure about he manual 2.5 tho! mine has the 4 speed sportronic which has the choice of normal auto that learns and adapts to your driving style , sport auto and manual tiptronic! the sound system is hugely impresive! think it has 8 various speakers/tweeters around the car and all controled via equalizers etc on the ics!
you've got the DSP system on yours, quite an expensive option! 
check the boot, there will be an amp mounted above the CD changer.
166 is a fabulous car especially in V6 form. The interior is a work of art especially with the momo leather. The DSP sound system is one of the best ive ever heard in any car. The system has a dedicated power amplifier that drives the 8 speakers but also has 2 subwoofers that Alfa incorporated into the rear parcel shelf. All this means you have the high and mid range being controlled by the standard speakers in the doors and low frequencies coming via the subs. As you can imagine the sound quality is excellent with no distortion with the volume cranked up! The DSP has some preset sound settings but also allows you to set the sound you want using the equaliser and room size and settings.
Manual V6 166's also have an STR (Sports Throttle Response) button which sharpens up the throttle when you fancy giving it some beans!! Plus every time you open the curtains in the morning you will be greated with this...
And everytime you open the bonnet you will have one of the finest production V6's ever made...
Hope this helps make up your mind. ;-)
Manual V6 166's also have an STR (Sports Throttle Response) button which sharpens up the throttle when you fancy giving it some beans!! Plus every time you open the curtains in the morning you will be greated with this...
And everytime you open the bonnet you will have one of the finest production V6's ever made...
Hope this helps make up your mind. ;-)
philoldsmobile said:
check for excessive snatch in the driveline - it may indicate the dual mass flywheel is worn (reasonably expensive, although recon flywheels are available) the Ts wears the flywheel quicker than the V6, many TS's will need a flywheel at about 100,000 miles.
Do the Twinsparks and V6 have a DMF...156s of a similar age don't have them???philoldsmobile said:
upper and lower front arms can wear, resulting in creaky front suspension, try and take the car over a few speed bumps to check for noise. not hugely expensive, but worth noting.
Doing the lot certainly aint cheap, so definitely worth knocking a few hundred off as the parts along will cost in the region of £200.philoldsmobile said:
the heater matrix can leak, the matrix is quite cheap, but its a pig to change, in auto models it leaks onto the gearbox ECU and wreaks havoc. many (myself included) have used a product called K-seal to prevent matrix leaks before they happen, or at the cusp of the problem - this seems very successful, but wont work if the matrix is too far gone.
Apparently a common "mod" is to wrap the ECU in plastic to prevent the water damage 
philoldsmobile said:
a deisel like sound from a twin spark at idle is the variator - it should be replaced at cam belt time, the variator isn't cheap, but isn't the end of the world if its noisy and the car is due a belt soon, no damage will occur, just a slight lack of low end power,
No, you'll lose top end power as the worn variator doesn't adjust the cam timing. Eventually damage is possible, but you'd have to practically kill it...I ran a knackered variator for around 30k with no problems.philoldsmobile said:
if you buy a TS with a recent cam belt failure and engine rebuild, check for proof the big end shells have been done too, they fail every time if they aren't
There are a few that have survived, usually if the damage was done at low revs. But you're right, I'd want to know the shells were replaced after being flatspotted!wrinx
wrinx said:
philoldsmobile said:
check for excessive snatch in the driveline - it may indicate the dual mass flywheel is worn (reasonably expensive, although recon flywheels are available) the Ts wears the flywheel quicker than the V6, many TS's will need a flywheel at about 100,000 miles.
Do the Twinsparks and V6 have a DMF...156s of a similar age don't have them???Not mentioned yet is the tax on these things. I pay 190 quid per year road tax on my car, but had I bought a younger model I would be paying top tax bracket as these things really push out the carbons. Shame, as the younger 3.2l models have better mpg rating than my 2.5l.
I have the 5 speed box in mine, and it is fine on the motorway. I get about 24mpg, but my daily commute is twisty stop starts through countryside.
Lovely car. Any regrets? Only that I didn't hold out for a 3.0l instead of getting a 2.5l because I was fed up of looking.
I am the proud owner of a 2001 Super 3 litre 6 speed with Momo leather, DSP, sat nav, etc etc. I've had the car since 2003 and having owned a fair few cars in my time (and still do!) I can honestly say that I wouldn't change my car for anything else (well maybe a Quottroporte but even then the only difference really is the V8). "Alfy" has now covered just over 140k wonderful miles, almost 100k with me and I'm looking forward to many more miles with him.
We've had a few repairs over the years, new MAF, leaking air con (still leaking), a couple of clutches and the infamous pedal box fracture (cheapest repair is a pair of mole grips - works a treat). Not replaced any suspension bits yet and in the last couple of years have been gradually replacing the original exhaust system. A couple of things to note: (1) the tracking needs to be kept on top of or else you will be buying 4 new tyres every year (2) the hand brake can fail an MOT - seems to be alternative years for each of the sides.
Apart from that I'm regularly getting 30mpg commuting mainly on motorways and given a decent country road, that V6 never fails to put a smile on your face and it's surprisingly planted for such a big car.
I must admit that I do feel a little sorry for some of the drivers I see on the motorway in their faceless company cars as I whoosh by in amazing comfort with my 10 speaker system booming away (not that they can hear it as it's amazingly sound proofed). And all for a very small sum of money compared to the company car tax they are paying.
We've had a few repairs over the years, new MAF, leaking air con (still leaking), a couple of clutches and the infamous pedal box fracture (cheapest repair is a pair of mole grips - works a treat). Not replaced any suspension bits yet and in the last couple of years have been gradually replacing the original exhaust system. A couple of things to note: (1) the tracking needs to be kept on top of or else you will be buying 4 new tyres every year (2) the hand brake can fail an MOT - seems to be alternative years for each of the sides.
Apart from that I'm regularly getting 30mpg commuting mainly on motorways and given a decent country road, that V6 never fails to put a smile on your face and it's surprisingly planted for such a big car.
I must admit that I do feel a little sorry for some of the drivers I see on the motorway in their faceless company cars as I whoosh by in amazing comfort with my 10 speaker system booming away (not that they can hear it as it's amazingly sound proofed). And all for a very small sum of money compared to the company car tax they are paying.
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