Five proper seats, fun to drive
Discussion
Kids. They keep getting bigger. Ours have just put me on notice that the current family charabanc is possibly getting a bit tight for space. The third seat in the middle is a problem as its not really a proper seat and is a bit hard for the long trips we got on. I reckon I've got a bit of time, so need to start thinking of the options and a budget. Got to be fun to drive in some way, petrol only, and I don't need 7 seats.
Current car is a 2013 Subaru Liberty GT Wagon with 6-sp manual - a WRX in drag, if you like. I love it, the way it drives, the ride/handling combo, performance, reliability and the way it fits me. Sure, its thirsty and has a face only a mother could love, but its still fun. I also think its quite spacious for what it is too - I'm 6'2" and have plenty of room.
I'd like a fast wagon, but the options over here are fairly limited - Commodore (both ex-local V8 Holden and new, imported V6 Opel), Superb 206, Passat R, BMW 5, Merc E. And that's about it - no sporty Mondeo, Mazda 6 is too small, Subaru gave up on the fast family wagon ages ago as the Levorg is based on the Impreza and the Outback is, well, slow and wobbly even with the 3.6.
With that in mind, I spent a couple of hours traipsing round dealers just to get a feel of the size of things. Simple check - set the driver's seat to where I'd have it, then check leg room behind and comfort of the middle seat.
BMW - X5 has a reasonable bench but no more leg room or middle seat comfort than the Liberty, X3 same as X5 but a bit smaller. G31 530 wagon has a better bench but leg room is appalling - I could hardly get my feet in. BMW sales bloke was astounded when I said all three were smaller than current car, but wouldn't step outside to see for himself.
Land Rover - Disco and Disco Sport. Disco bench was wide and fitted three but set low so no knee support. Also 7-seater which I don't need. Can't imagine its much fun to drive. Sport had a better set up in the back, but just does not appeal.
VW - Passat rear bench too compromised for 3 - much less comfy than the Liberty. Touareg is diesel-only, Touran rear bench similar to Passat.
Mazda - CX9 front seat didn't give enough legroom which was a surprise as the 2012 model I used to own was fine. Also, 7 seats and not really a fun car
Volvo - XC90 is big enough, but 7 seats and not known for being any fun. Also still have not gotten over my last Volvo experience.
Holden - VF Commodore wagon has the space across the rear bench and the legroom though the transmission tunnel is intrusive and the rear seat backs seem upright with no adjustment. New ZB wagon rear bench is too compromised and has only as much rear legroom as the Liberty.
Jeep - Grand Cherokee SRT - looks like it could be fun, and is usefully bigger and more comfy in the back than the Liberty without having 7 seats. Current front runner for me as an alternative to V8 Commodore.
On the list to try - Merc ML/GLE, Cayenne, Superb wagon - but what else is there? Audi Q7 and A6 wagon are diesel only and I can't afford an RS6. I'm not interested in proper off-roaders, and am only looking at SUVs because they offer the space I want.
Likely budget puts me in a 4 year old SRT or 2 year old V8 Commodore, Merc and Porsche offerings would be a few years older. The thought of owning a Range Rover out of warranty scares me, and that's from someone who has a 928...
Anyone have any other thoughts around this?? Ideal car would be the current Outback shell fitted with new WRX running gear and suspension by STi.
Current car is a 2013 Subaru Liberty GT Wagon with 6-sp manual - a WRX in drag, if you like. I love it, the way it drives, the ride/handling combo, performance, reliability and the way it fits me. Sure, its thirsty and has a face only a mother could love, but its still fun. I also think its quite spacious for what it is too - I'm 6'2" and have plenty of room.
I'd like a fast wagon, but the options over here are fairly limited - Commodore (both ex-local V8 Holden and new, imported V6 Opel), Superb 206, Passat R, BMW 5, Merc E. And that's about it - no sporty Mondeo, Mazda 6 is too small, Subaru gave up on the fast family wagon ages ago as the Levorg is based on the Impreza and the Outback is, well, slow and wobbly even with the 3.6.
With that in mind, I spent a couple of hours traipsing round dealers just to get a feel of the size of things. Simple check - set the driver's seat to where I'd have it, then check leg room behind and comfort of the middle seat.
BMW - X5 has a reasonable bench but no more leg room or middle seat comfort than the Liberty, X3 same as X5 but a bit smaller. G31 530 wagon has a better bench but leg room is appalling - I could hardly get my feet in. BMW sales bloke was astounded when I said all three were smaller than current car, but wouldn't step outside to see for himself.
Land Rover - Disco and Disco Sport. Disco bench was wide and fitted three but set low so no knee support. Also 7-seater which I don't need. Can't imagine its much fun to drive. Sport had a better set up in the back, but just does not appeal.
VW - Passat rear bench too compromised for 3 - much less comfy than the Liberty. Touareg is diesel-only, Touran rear bench similar to Passat.
Mazda - CX9 front seat didn't give enough legroom which was a surprise as the 2012 model I used to own was fine. Also, 7 seats and not really a fun car
Volvo - XC90 is big enough, but 7 seats and not known for being any fun. Also still have not gotten over my last Volvo experience.
Holden - VF Commodore wagon has the space across the rear bench and the legroom though the transmission tunnel is intrusive and the rear seat backs seem upright with no adjustment. New ZB wagon rear bench is too compromised and has only as much rear legroom as the Liberty.
Jeep - Grand Cherokee SRT - looks like it could be fun, and is usefully bigger and more comfy in the back than the Liberty without having 7 seats. Current front runner for me as an alternative to V8 Commodore.
On the list to try - Merc ML/GLE, Cayenne, Superb wagon - but what else is there? Audi Q7 and A6 wagon are diesel only and I can't afford an RS6. I'm not interested in proper off-roaders, and am only looking at SUVs because they offer the space I want.
Likely budget puts me in a 4 year old SRT or 2 year old V8 Commodore, Merc and Porsche offerings would be a few years older. The thought of owning a Range Rover out of warranty scares me, and that's from someone who has a 928...
Anyone have any other thoughts around this?? Ideal car would be the current Outback shell fitted with new WRX running gear and suspension by STi.
drgoatboy said:
When I was looking the car that had the most rear legroom of all the big estates was the superb. Can't tell you what the middle seat was like though. Worth a look.
Whats the objection to 7 seats? The back 2 can normally be folded away and surely can be left that way permanently?
Most of the 7 seat cars I've seen have not got real seats for the 3rd row. More like thinly padded ones for kids with zero legroom. Last "7 seater" was a Nissan X Trail, but there's no fun in that. Before that was a Mercedes R350Whats the objection to 7 seats? The back 2 can normally be folded away and surely can be left that way permanently?
With looks that only its mother could love, but 7 full seats. Was quick enough, but too fugly.
I looked at a Disco Sport but the 7 seater option was as bad as the X Trail I was in.
drgoatboy said:
When I was looking the car that had the most rear legroom of all the big estates was the superb. Can't tell you what the middle seat was like though. Worth a look.
Whats the objection to 7 seats? The back 2 can normally be folded away and surely can be left that way permanently?
Don't need or want 7 seats, and I'm not sure there are too many 7-seaters that are all that much fun within my meagre budget. When we had a CX9 the rearmost seats were never used, it just seems an unnecessary bit of kit.Whats the objection to 7 seats? The back 2 can normally be folded away and surely can be left that way permanently?
Anyway, I've got a bit of time, but useful to have an idea of what's out there.
Have you tried A8/7 Series/S Class/XJ? Would seem to make sense if the class down are lacking the space you need and they all come with LWB versions should even more space be required. No wagon versions available but all have massive boots.
What's your budget BTW?
What's your budget BTW?
Edited by SWoll on Monday 5th August 08:50
As an update, I've managed to look over a couple more.
Cayenne is usefully bigger with a decent middle seat and boot space, though the Macan is smaller than the Sube in the back.
Merc E-Class is no bigger than the Subaru, possibly a bit tighter for knee space, though the rear bench is a little wider. ML/GLE is another that is usefully bigger.
Haven't yet tried a Superb, but the current shortlist is VF Commodore, Grand Cherokee, Cayenne, ML/GLE. Budget to be sorted based on what is out there at the time.
I have also thought about trying the next size up saloons - 7-series, S-class, etc - but the need for wagon-type space in the boot is still there, ours is often filled with stuff, bikes, and other crap.
Cayenne is usefully bigger with a decent middle seat and boot space, though the Macan is smaller than the Sube in the back.
Merc E-Class is no bigger than the Subaru, possibly a bit tighter for knee space, though the rear bench is a little wider. ML/GLE is another that is usefully bigger.
Haven't yet tried a Superb, but the current shortlist is VF Commodore, Grand Cherokee, Cayenne, ML/GLE. Budget to be sorted based on what is out there at the time.
I.miss.my.old.cars said:
Is the problem legroom or bench width?
The problem is having a comfy middle seat, which is related to both bench width and legroom, and space around any transmission tunnel.I have also thought about trying the next size up saloons - 7-series, S-class, etc - but the need for wagon-type space in the boot is still there, ours is often filled with stuff, bikes, and other crap.
Google [bot] said:
You can buy my 6-seater, plenty of room fore and aft.
I may need to park this on the driveway for when MrsPB comes home one day, just for the reaction 
Strict rota will be imposed anyway, but the kids aren’t going to get smaller so whoever has the middle will need to be able to get comfy for a couple of hours.
If nothing else the exercise has proven the Liberty to be strong competition against those that are thought to be rivals from a class larger.
Easiest way to get comfort for three children is to have a seven seater as the middle seat is rarely as comfortable (or make one child walk!)
Alternatively - front wheel drive for no transmission tunnel, or maybe electric for a skateboard chassis - Tesla?
May not help you meet your requirements though
Alternatively - front wheel drive for no transmission tunnel, or maybe electric for a skateboard chassis - Tesla?
May not help you meet your requirements though
PomBstard said:
I have also thought about trying the next size up saloons - 7-series, S-class, etc - but the need for wagon-type space in the boot is still there, ours is often filled with stuff, bikes, and other crap.
Detachable tow bar and a bike carrier? You can't be running around with a boot full of bikes constantly surely, and as the kids bikes grow they'll not fit in the boot for long anyway?Indeed, roads do seem to be leading to the GC SRT or Commodore/HSV wagon of some variety. Of the others, a Cayenne appeals, but I'd be looking at one that was quite a few years older.
To answer SWoll's point, over a period of about 13 years I've gotten very lazy about having a large boot immediately available, with bars and bike rack permanently installed on the roof. Its one less thing to think about, and often used. Putting the bike rack on/off (and having to store it when not in use), or not being able to just flip the seats down to fit in a larger than expected item, would probably get boring after a while. Besides, if that was what I thought I could live with, I'd be out looking for an HSV Gen-F2 Clubsport - 530bhp, RWD, 6-sp manual - and no discussion
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts, process started...
To answer SWoll's point, over a period of about 13 years I've gotten very lazy about having a large boot immediately available, with bars and bike rack permanently installed on the roof. Its one less thing to think about, and often used. Putting the bike rack on/off (and having to store it when not in use), or not being able to just flip the seats down to fit in a larger than expected item, would probably get boring after a while. Besides, if that was what I thought I could live with, I'd be out looking for an HSV Gen-F2 Clubsport - 530bhp, RWD, 6-sp manual - and no discussion
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts, process started...
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