Police to profit from new £75 motorway speeding courses.
Discussion
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-profit-f...
While Roadpeace claim that the courses are not effective, because of the huge increase in drivers TAKING courses, there is another down side to this new course - many drivers will feel tricked because all too often the limits seem to be set too low and for no good reason - like the ones I saw at 3.00 am on the M25 which claimed that the 60 mph limit was for "Workforce in the road" which was untrue - there was no sign of anyone working in the road, and 5 miles ahead, a similar warning led to a 50 mph limit, and still no workforce in the road!
Anyone caught under these circumstances is likely to feel aggrieved, and will not be swayed by a course, except to avoid the points and potential impact on future insurance.
Meanwhile, I can foresee that insurance companies denied the assessment tool when setting premiums, of the points, will be wanting to know more about drivers going on courses, as Admiral do already!
The law is only effective if drivers respect the reasons for the law, and it's enforcement.
SMART motorway appears to have no respect from the majority of drivers when I have encountered it!
While Roadpeace claim that the courses are not effective, because of the huge increase in drivers TAKING courses, there is another down side to this new course - many drivers will feel tricked because all too often the limits seem to be set too low and for no good reason - like the ones I saw at 3.00 am on the M25 which claimed that the 60 mph limit was for "Workforce in the road" which was untrue - there was no sign of anyone working in the road, and 5 miles ahead, a similar warning led to a 50 mph limit, and still no workforce in the road!
Anyone caught under these circumstances is likely to feel aggrieved, and will not be swayed by a course, except to avoid the points and potential impact on future insurance.
Meanwhile, I can foresee that insurance companies denied the assessment tool when setting premiums, of the points, will be wanting to know more about drivers going on courses, as Admiral do already!
The law is only effective if drivers respect the reasons for the law, and it's enforcement.
SMART motorway appears to have no respect from the majority of drivers when I have encountered it!
Mill Wheel said:
like the ones I saw at 3.00 am on the M25 which claimed that the 60 mph limit was for "Workforce in the road" which was untrue - there was no sign of anyone working in the road, and 5 miles ahead, a similar warning led to a 50 mph limit, and still no workforce in the road!
I appreciate I may be troll feeding, but how long were you there for? 3 am is around the time they start taking lane closures off and you're welcome to try that with traffic passing at the NSL. http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/14/lorry-comes-pant-sta...Also, which cost you more time, being held 10 - 20 mph under the speed limit for a couple of miles or writing that post b
hing about it?Collectingbrass said:
I appreciate I may be troll feeding, but how long were you there for? 3 am is around the time they start taking lane closures off and you're welcome to try that with traffic passing at the NSL. http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/14/lorry-comes-pant-sta...
Your example is hardly relevant - traffic density at 3.00 anm was a fraction of that in the video you linked to, and the passing driver was actually driving over the hard shoulder, and could have killed the innocent driver even at speeds a good deal slower.On the occasion that I last encountered this, the M25 had already been subject to a full closure, with all traffic diverted onto local roads that could have been suitable except for the traffic light timing was set for day time traffic not M25 volumes.
We then rejoined through South Mimms services, only to encounter a gantry dictated lane closure... and no workforce.
That can hardly be described as "SMART".
You also offer no explanation for why one section was limited to 60 while another was 50, when neither had men nor vehicles at the alleged scene. SMART motorway is supposed to react to problems, not cause them.
Collectingbrass said:
I appreciate I may be troll feeding, but how long were you there for? 3 am is around the time they start taking lane closures off and you're welcome to try that with traffic passing at the NSL. http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/14/lorry-comes-pant-sta...
Also, which cost you more time, being held 10 - 20 mph under the speed limit for a couple of miles or writing that post bhing about it?
But what is wrong with turning the speed restrictions off when there is no work going on... Also, which cost you more time, being held 10 - 20 mph under the speed limit for a couple of miles or writing that post b
hing about it?It seems that companies proclaiming to be doing road works are able to hold motorists to ransom with mile upon mile of cones and unnecessary speed restrictions with impunity.
Sticking a few signs out and adding a speed restriction often seems to be a way of actually not doing any work whilst fining motorists who exceed the arbitrary imposed limit...
e.g Try heading West on the M4 at Newport, you will be greeted by a 50mph speed or lower at any time of day, the reason? a roadworks sign before the Brynglas tunnel, followed by an end of roadworks sign after the tunnel... however those signs have been there for years, literally, without any work being ongoing. It will be cited that due to a fire in the westbound tunnel many years back the lighting is damaged so the speed limit needs to be reduced... sadly the Welsh Government haven't realised that at 2am it's still bloody dark elsewhere on the M4, yet you can are able to drive at NSL.
Clearly speed restrictions are needed when people are working on the roads, however the lack of consideration for the motorist when work is not being done and restrictions are still in place should be addressed and dealt with accordingly.
Mill Wheel said:
Collectingbrass said:
I appreciate I may be troll feeding, but how long were you there for? 3 am is around the time they start taking lane closures off and you're welcome to try that with traffic passing at the NSL. http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/14/lorry-comes-pant-sta...
Your example is hardly relevant - traffic density at 3.00 anm was a fraction of that in the video you linked to, and the passing driver was actually driving over the hard shoulder, and could have killed the innocent driver even at speeds a good deal slower.On the occasion that I last encountered this, the M25 had already been subject to a full closure, with all traffic diverted onto local roads that could have been suitable except for the traffic light timing was set for day time traffic not M25 volumes.
We then rejoined through South Mimms services, only to encounter a gantry dictated lane closure... and no workforce.
That can hardly be described as "SMART".
You also offer no explanation for why one section was limited to 60 while another was 50, when neither had men nor vehicles at the alleged scene. SMART motorway is supposed to react to problems, not cause them.
You don't know where the workforce were, nor do you know what they were doing. For all you know the surface or the central reservation safety fence may not have been suitable for traffic. Driving gods we may be but we are not all knowing, unlike the control room who set the limits.
Mill Wheel said:
Anyone caught under these circumstances is likely to feel aggrieved, and will not be swayed by a course, except to avoid the points and potential impact on future insurance.
A colleague got an awareness course after being caught at 46 in the M42 variable when it was set to 40 just after 6AM. Light traffic - no known reason for it to be set. Most of the people on the course he attended had been caught the same way (but not at the same time).He was surprisingly OK about it, but to me it negates the safety message - there was no safety infringement aspect to his offence.
They lower the speed limit before the lane closures go in place. The lorries ready to cone off the motorway would be off the network at a junction or services waiting for the all clear that lower limit is in force before proceeding to cone off the motorway. I would guess you wen't through in those 5/10 mins or so between the signs turning on and the workers starting the lane closure.
Sheepshanks said:
A colleague got an awareness course after being caught at 46 in the M42 variable when it was set to 40 just after 6AM. Light traffic - no known reason for it to be set. Most of the people on the course he attended had been caught the same way (but not at the same time).
He was surprisingly OK about it, but to me it negates the safety message - there was no safety infringement aspect to his offence.
There will always be a reason and you will probably never know what it was. Could've been a number of things.He was surprisingly OK about it, but to me it negates the safety message - there was no safety infringement aspect to his offence.
- Workers just finished opening a lane
- Debris reported in a lane
- Police dealing with an incident ahead
It's very rare for signs to be left on. But they don't just switch them on to 40 for no reason. There is always going to be that slight delay on switching the sign off... Workers finished re-opening the road, they pull off motorway then someone does a run to ensure no cones or other debris left out then they put the call through to turn off the speed restriction.
Collectingbrass said:
How long were you there for? Would you prefer that the speed limit changes every minute and every metre to suit the workforce location?
You don't know where the workforce were, nor do you know what they were doing. For all you know the surface or the central reservation safety fence may not have been suitable for traffic. Driving gods we may be but we are not all knowing, unlike the control room who set the limits.
How long was I there?You don't know where the workforce were, nor do you know what they were doing. For all you know the surface or the central reservation safety fence may not have been suitable for traffic. Driving gods we may be but we are not all knowing, unlike the control room who set the limits.
Well on a journey from Cumbria to Dover to catch a ferry I had allowed 2 hours of extra time, and due to closures and limits elsewhere on the network, had only 25 minutes of it left, with a good few miles left to go.
Lane three was closed by the gantry signs. IF the control room were monitoring traffic, they would have seen that they could have allowed traffic to flow freely... and it would have been nowhere near the CR safety fence - as was the case - the lane WAS closed, even though there was no "Workforce in the Road" on the clockwise or counterclockwise direction.
They clearly do not monitor much, as I have seen "Cattle on road" warnings, 5 hours after the cattle incident was cleared up and reported as such on the local news! Maybe they should monitor local media and not the motorway!
Collectingbrass said:
How long were you there for? Would you prefer that the speed limit changes every minute and every metre to suit the workforce location?
You don't know where the workforce were, nor do you know what they were doing. For all you know the surface or the central reservation safety fence may not have been suitable for traffic. Driving gods we may be but we are not all knowing, unlike the control room who set the limits.
You are being utterly disingenuous. The 50mph speed restrictions in the Smart Motorway construction zones are in place 24/7. The two I have to endure most frequently are on the M1 and M3, each of which have stretches of 13-14 miles. There is no work in these zones at weekends, so no justification for maintaining the limits at weekends.You don't know where the workforce were, nor do you know what they were doing. For all you know the surface or the central reservation safety fence may not have been suitable for traffic. Driving gods we may be but we are not all knowing, unlike the control room who set the limits.
Zod said:
Collectingbrass said:
How long were you there for? Would you prefer that the speed limit changes every minute and every metre to suit the workforce location?
You don't know where the workforce were, nor do you know what they were doing. For all you know the surface or the central reservation safety fence may not have been suitable for traffic. Driving gods we may be but we are not all knowing, unlike the control room who set the limits.
You are being utterly disingenuous. The 50mph speed restrictions in the Smart Motorway construction zones are in place 24/7. The two I have to endure most frequently are on the M1 and M3, each of which have stretches of 13-14 miles. There is no work in these zones at weekends, so no justification for maintaining the limits at weekends.You don't know where the workforce were, nor do you know what they were doing. For all you know the surface or the central reservation safety fence may not have been suitable for traffic. Driving gods we may be but we are not all knowing, unlike the control room who set the limits.
No Speed Cameras and even if i was thinking about going along at 10% + 2 I was being passed by everything from Doris and Fred on their way to the cribbage game to Constantine in his 44 tonner. The point being that if you are over zealous your message loses it's effect and even the Doris and Freds of this world ignore you.
Mill Wheel said:
Well on a journey from Cumbria to Dover to catch a ferry I had allowed 2 hours of extra time,
That would be too tight for me for something that I really didn't want to be late for.I do Chester to the M4 corridor area a couple of times a month, so nothing like as far as your trip, and I allow at least an extra hour and it wouldn't be a massive issue if I was late.
I drove to Southampton late evening last year and it stopped being funny after the third time I was diverted off the motorway.
Zod said:
You are being utterly disingenuous. The 50mph speed restrictions in the Smart Motorway construction zones are in place 24/7. The two I have to endure most frequently are on the M1 and M3, each of which have stretches of 13-14 miles. There is no work in these zones at weekends, so no justification for maintaining the limits at weekends.
Yes they may not be working weekends but the motorway isn't a full motorway with crash barriers either side and other safety features in place hence the lower limit. HantsRat said:
Zod said:
You are being utterly disingenuous. The 50mph speed restrictions in the Smart Motorway construction zones are in place 24/7. The two I have to endure most frequently are on the M1 and M3, each of which have stretches of 13-14 miles. There is no work in these zones at weekends, so no justification for maintaining the limits at weekends.
Yes they may not be working weekends but the motorway isn't a full motorway with crash barriers either side and other safety features in place hence the lower limit. Zod said:
HantsRat said:
Zod said:
You are being utterly disingenuous. The 50mph speed restrictions in the Smart Motorway construction zones are in place 24/7. The two I have to endure most frequently are on the M1 and M3, each of which have stretches of 13-14 miles. There is no work in these zones at weekends, so no justification for maintaining the limits at weekends.
Yes they may not be working weekends but the motorway isn't a full motorway with crash barriers either side and other safety features in place hence the lower limit. If it was a case of coming across these unfathomable speed restrictions only occasionally the usual trotted out reasons could be accepted .
When you come across them on an almost daily basis it becomes questionable .
When you come across a limit and travel 15 miles and see nothing to cause it at 3am it decends into farce .
When motorways are closed for overnight work and the reasonable alternate routes are also closed it is time people were held accountable.
Trying to do a night run from Crewe to Dover and the following closures were in force M6,M5,M42,M1,A14 ,M25,M20 A2.
All routes had speed restrictions for miles and miles .
A journey that normally took 5 1/2 hrs took 8 and was 75 miles longer than planned .
For car drivers it just means your a bit late ,for truck drivers it can mean not having enough hours to get home or to a customer when promised .
The traffic management is certainly lacking in planning .
Even the Highways England app is very often out of sync with the real situation .
When you come across them on an almost daily basis it becomes questionable .
When you come across a limit and travel 15 miles and see nothing to cause it at 3am it decends into farce .
When motorways are closed for overnight work and the reasonable alternate routes are also closed it is time people were held accountable.
Trying to do a night run from Crewe to Dover and the following closures were in force M6,M5,M42,M1,A14 ,M25,M20 A2.
All routes had speed restrictions for miles and miles .
A journey that normally took 5 1/2 hrs took 8 and was 75 miles longer than planned .
For car drivers it just means your a bit late ,for truck drivers it can mean not having enough hours to get home or to a customer when promised .
The traffic management is certainly lacking in planning .
Even the Highways England app is very often out of sync with the real situation .
Zod said:
I'm open to being educated here. There are crash barriers, the new concrete ones. What other safety measures are missing? There are no crash barriers on the nearside, but there are none on most of the network. There is no hard shoulder.
Lots of other issues.- As you mentioned... No hard shoulder, if a car breaks down they have to sit in a live lane until rescued. Beleive me, daunting when cars fly past at 70+
- Concrete crash barriers are just temporary as they don't crumble or absorb impact when hit.
- Smaller lanes
- Sometimes no proper road or lane markings
- Construction off and on slips with no crash protection
- Lots of items of machinery parked up that if you hit at 70mph probably wouldn't do you much good.
Plus alot easier to put in permanent average speed cameras for long term projects such as the M3 smart motorway rather than having someone responsible for turning them on and off when workers are there.
HantsRat said:
Zod said:
I'm open to being educated here. There are crash barriers, the new concrete ones. What other safety measures are missing? There are no crash barriers on the nearside, but there are none on most of the network. There is no hard shoulder.
Lots of other issues.- As you mentioned... No hard shoulder, if a car breaks down they have to sit in a live lane until rescued. Beleive me, daunting when cars fly past at 70+
- Concrete crash barriers are just temporary as they don't crumble or absorb impact when hit.
- Smaller lanes
- Sometimes no proper road or lane markings
- Construction off and on slips with no crash protection
- Lots of items of machinery parked up that if you hit at 70mph probably wouldn't do you much good.
Plus alot easier to put in permanent average speed cameras for long term projects such as the M3 smart motorway rather than having someone responsible for turning them on and off when workers are there.
Lane widths already vary between motorways.
Normal motorways have plenty of hard objects that can be hit at 70 mph - gantries and bridges, for instance.
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